Zeolites

This is the paper which has changed my way of thinking. Zeolites were used in the treatment of waste water to remove ammonia in freshwater. When the zeolite was ready for recharging they placed it into a separate reactor and autotrophic nitrifying bacterium are added, media aerated and sodium bicarbonate is slowly added to release the ammonia to allow the bacteria to convert the ammonia to nitrite and nitrate. This is done in freshwater and shows that for the bacteria to utilise the ammonia locked in the zeolite it needs to be released using sodium bicarbonate.
http://lequia.udg.es/lequianet/WatSciTech/03401/0449/034010449.pdf

This is what happens in freshwater with low sodium content, in seawater I think that chemicals will be constantly exchanged.
 
Great info everyone. The back and forth is very interesting.

I have been trying to form my own opinion on the Zeovit method. Unfortunately the manufacturer doesn't do a good job of explaining how it works.

No disrespect intended here, just some fodder for further discussion... I'm the last one qualified to suggest how stuff works. It appears that the marketing strategy may be to allow reefers to hypothisize about how it works and simply point to Tank X and say "See". Others (Brightwell, etc.) are starting to do the same thing. It only makes sense that if it works, the manufacturer knows exactly how.

I just want to see what happens when I use only Zeovit stones and carbon dosing. I have planned to dose Lugol's Solution, Potassium Chloride, and Iron to account for their uptake. My guess is that it would not matter in the least if I used any of the other zeolite formulations designed for this purpose.
 
I wish there was a good DIY for this method. Its so hard to replicate all the chemicals (amino acids) to do this method on the cheap.

like DIY two part. I guess it wont be too long...
 
It only makes sense that if it works, the manufacturer knows exactly how.

Do you mean that is the marketing strategy (I might agree with that), or that is what you really think makes sense?

Manufacturers make all sorts of clearly bogus claims for products that do not and sometimes cannot work as described, so I would not subscribe to believing they typically understand all of their other products. :D
 
I owned an LFS and believe that many understand, but make the bogus claims anyway. As to Zeovit, I'm not a chemist and like I said, am not the one to debunk their claims.

What I was trying to say is that I would be amazed if they had created a product that was actually as amazing as they claim and didn't know EXACTLY how it works. If that is the case, the only reason I can come up with for the lack of information is that the product is: 1) so simple that it can be easily replicated; or 2) really doesn't work as well as claimed.

I believe reason #1 may be closer to the truth and that is what I'm trying to do. There's actually more husbandry than chemistry in their method, and their additives are just too expensive. Amino acids, Potassium Iodide, potassium Chloride, and iron are pretty easy to come by.
 
OK, I get it.

One thing I'd suggest for certain products and understanding them is that some are so complicated, with 15 different trace elements, for example, that the company selling it might even have observational evidence that it works in some cases, without knowing what in it is actually doing what specifically for organisms in the tank.

As an analogy, at my first job I was presented with a product “deconstruction" program, and it was our own product! My mission was to figure out what, if anything, each of the 12 different ingredients did (no one had the slightest idea), and to suggest improvements or eliminations. They arrived at it by trial and error formulation, and once set, no subsequent employee ever wanted to suggest removing anything for fear that it might be important. :lol
 
OK, I get it.

One thing I'd suggest for certain products and understanding them is that some are so complicated, with 15 different trace elements, for example, that the company selling it might even have observational evidence that it works in some cases, without knowing what in it is actually doing what specifically for organisms in the tank.

As an analogy, at my first job I was presented with a product "œdeconstruction" program, and it was our own product! My mission was to figure out what, if anything, each of the 12 different ingredients did (no one had the slightest idea), and to suggest improvements or eliminations. They arrived at it by trial and error formulation, and once set, no subsequent employee ever wanted to suggest removing anything for fear that it might be important. :lol


Good to know. Thanks.
 
I know for a fact that the Zeovit Zeolites work because on to seperate occasions one being a tank move where the colts corals started dieing off and the ammonia shot up to the top of the scale for a couple of days.I added the zeolites and by the morning ammonia was dead zero.Another example is I was using dried Eva Fusion rock to start a new tank and the ammonia was through the roof I did 90% water changes and within a couple of hours the ammonia was right back where it started from.My guess was internal sponges that died was releasing the ammonia and other die off.The worst part was that I was not expecting the problem and had some anthias and blue chromises already on the way.The morning of the fish arrival I added the zeolites and later that evening the fish,7 of them in a 120 to be exact.Later that evening I couldnt sleep so around 4 in the morning I checked on the fish and all where alive,I checked the ammonia and it was dead 0.That was the end of ammonia and did not lose a single fish,I never even got a nitrite reading after the zeolites either.I dont recommend anyone doing what I did but I had about 15 lbs of live rock and 140 lbs of dead rock about 3 months old.Did not see the problem till it was too late.Luckily zeolites do in one way or another remove ammonia to absolute 0 fast.
 
We know that on systems that use kalkwasser ,phosphate has precipitated and bound to rock.We also know that algae can through some process release the bound phosphate.Thus the main reason people have algae problems on rocks even though the phosphate test at 0. Well atleast thats my theory.Maybe through a process similar to algae or perhaps with the help of osmosis ammonia is being pulled out of rock through bacterial consumption.Maybe not all the ammonia is able to be pulled which is why the Zeolites should be changed every 6-8 weeks.You can see increased film on glass when its time to change out.ANother interesting observation is when you plunge the rocks you visually see good size pieces of bacteria mulm being released but never when you wipe the glass which leads me to believe there attracted to the zeolites for some reason.And as you know the benefit of the bacterial mulm is that it feeds the corals.Which Ive been told by many of my Club members they have never seen the kinda of polyp extension my acros have all day and all night long.Id like to believe thats a feeding response.My acans and scolys display feeding tentacle when I plunge the zeolites as well.
 
3 days ago I added 3.5 cups of Zeovit stones to my DIY reactor. At the time nitrates were at 10 ppm. I am adding 13 ml of MB7 and 1.5 ml of a 1 to 1 mixture of vodka and vinegar daily. We'll see where it goes from here.

I'm not sold on the entire system, but I think the zeolites might be helpful.
 
3 days ago I added 3.5 cups of Zeovit stones to my DIY reactor. At the time nitrates were at 10 ppm. I am adding 13 ml of MB7 and 1.5 ml of a 1 to 1 mixture of vodka and vinegar daily. We'll see where it goes from here.

I'm not sold on the entire system, but I think the zeolites might be helpful.

I have a few bags of zeolite left over and may give it a try. Let us know how it does in a few days.
 
Which is why the Zeovit guide recommends against using GFO with zeolites.

Many hobbyist still use GFO with zeovit as it is not very effect in lowering po4 in high load tanks.


I highly doubt you have to use zeolite with zeovit anyway as the bacteria will be in your live rock .

Zeolite does seem to absorb some nutrients like carbon as the water goes crystal clear the following day after using it.
 
Thus the main reason people have algae problems on rocks even though the phosphate test at 0

That’s not the only reason, obviously, since many people have that and the algae is growing on the glass too. Think of it this way, if you have a lot of growing algae, it means there is a lot of nutrient available, but it does not mean that the level needs to be high. A lot of growing algae will suck up the nutrients rapidly, so as fast as they arrive (from foods, etc), the algae consumes it. That's the beneficial reason that macroalgae filtration works, and it is the same reason that a lot of problem algae can reduce nutrients to seemingly low levels.

Maybe through a process similar to algae or perhaps with the help of osmosis ammonia is being pulled out of rock through bacterial consumption.

No, that will not make the ammonia any more available than if it never bound in the first place, and was just floating around waiting to be bound by something.

At least the limewater theory, despite my not believing it important, claims the phosphate was collected remotely, where the limewater hits the tank water, and delivers it to the bottom where it settles out. That could increase phosphate in the vicinity of the substrate. But ammonia binding does not claim such a remote collection, so cannot actually increase ammonia in the vicinity of the substrate.

We know that on systems that use kalkwasser ,phosphate has precipitated and bound to rock

Despite the zeovit people making that claim, I do not think it true. Certainly phosphate can bind to rock and sand, but it happens just fine in the absence of limewater. I can't see how binding some phosphate is worse than leaving it free in the water, in terms of bioavailability to algae.

Another interesting observation is when you plunge the rocks you visually see good size pieces of bacteria mulm being released but never when you wipe the glass which leads me to believe there attracted to the zeolites for some reason.

Activated carbon works exactly the same way. When I rinse it, lots of bacteria come off. It is not the ammonia binding that caused the bacterial growth. It is just a good surface for bacterial growth, not a unique attribute of a zeolite.
 
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Perhaps I should explain in more detail why phosphate bound to a CaCO3 surface is not really a good analogy, IMO.

Phosphate does bind to calcium carbonate surfaces (such as live rock and sand) in much the same way that ammonia and other ions (potassium, etc) bind to a zeolite. Both types of binding are reversible, more binding happens at higher ion concentrations, and may be impacted by factors like pH.

In the case of phosphate bound to CaCO3, that will happen any time phosphate becomes elevated in the aquarium. The surface bound phosphate then acts as a reservoir, releasing that phosphate back into the water if the concentration in the water drops. Additionally, phosphate can be released from CaCO3 surfaces by ph changes. The maximum binding happens roughly around pH 8.4, and either higher or lower pH will release some of it.

Algae that have become attached to the rock surface can locally impact the pH, by using up CO2 during photosynthesis, or generating it at night by respiration. Some species may also be able to impact pH in other ways as well. If the algae substantially changes the local pH between itself and the underlying live rock, it might cause phosphate that is already bound to be released, and become available to it. So in a sense, the rock can act as a source of phosphate for the algae when there is not enough in the water column itself.

Note, however, that that is a one way process. It is not an ongoing effect. Once the rock is depleted of surface bound phosphate, there is no more to be had (without dissolving away more rock with very low pH, which may happen, but is itself a one way process). Specifically, this process does not work by using the CaCO3 as an ongoing collector of phosphate for the algae. A fresh CaCO3 surface with no phosphate is going to be scavenging phosphate form the water, and that will take it away from algae, not provide it. Any time that phosphate is actually adding to the rock, the algae are not getting it and the local concentration near the algae is lower, reducing the bioavailability.

So for phosphate on CaCO3 surface, once any surface reservoir is depleted, the algae does not benefit from this process. This is easily verified in many ways, not least of which is the various processes used to strip phosphate from CaCO3 surfaces (rock cooking, acid washing, etc) that make it much less likely problem algae will reappear.

So, how is this different from ammonia on a zeolite? The second part is not. If you start with a zeolite with no ammonia on it, it is exactly analogous to phosphate on CaCO3: the algae or bacteria do not benefit from having nutrients bound to it.

If, somehow, you bound ammonia first then added bacteria, yes that could possibly benefit bacteria, just as phosphate bound to rock can help algae. The bacteria may be able to alter the local environment enough to reduce ammonia binding (not sure exactly how that would happen, but it is at least theoretically possible). But once it is done, it is not an ongoing process, just as with phosphate.

So the idea that the zeolite collects ammonia from the water and serves it up to the bacteria is flawed. It may happen once initially (if you bind ammonia before bacteria colonize the surface), but once the effect happens, the binding sites are available again, taking ammonia that the bacteria would otherwise potentially get (or it does nothing if the bacteria have permanently altered the zeolite surface in a way preventing ammonia from binding.

Anyway, I hope this makes sense to folks and helps explain why I think the ammonia release hypothesis is not valid. :)
 
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