Ich in 10 ft fish only

[Stuart60611]

Nothing in this hobby is certain....there would be no argument then...

Not talking about chance here....talking about all your "if" statments...

If you have a large enough QT ....75 gallon +
If you have large enough cycled media
If you change water frequently
If you dose properly (lucklily cupramine is safer than other copper treatments)

These are all factors that play into the success of a QT....they are big "IFs" because rarely have I seen any reefer that has successfully and continually met all of these requirements....yes you have CONTROL, but I beg to differ than any human being is perfect at what they try to control....again, a lot of Ifs...

I suppose you are correct that they they are "ifs" in terms of whether the hobbyiest is able to do the above correctly. However, I strongly suggest that if you do not have the abilities to do the above correctly, then you will also not be able to maintain your display tank. These items do not require much skill or experience and only involve the most basic aquarium skills. You do not not need to do them perfectly, and you will succeed in quarantine even with quite a wide margin for error when performing the above. If you cannot easily do the above, then you really are not suited to own and maintain an aquarium because your display tank will be more difficult to maintain then the above.

 

[bur01014]

I suppose you are correct that they they are "ifs" in terms of whether the hobbyiest is able to do the above correctly. However, I strongly suggest that if you do not have the abilities to do the above correctly, then you will also not be able to maintain your display tank. These items do not require much skill or experience and only involve the most basic aquarium skills. You do not not need to do them perfectly, and you will succeed in quarantine even with quite a wide margin for error when performing the above. If you cannot easily do the above, then you really are not suited to own and maintain an aquarium because your display tank will be more difficult to maintain then the above.

couldn't disagree more....

dosing cupramine in a tank where frequent water changes are required...hence re-dosing...is no where near comparison to a basic Display Tank duties..... 0.2 ppm off and your sensitive fish (dwarf lion) is in serious trouble...even how you hold the cupramine bottle to dispense the dosing drops has a large effect....none of this is basic, maintaining a DT grants way more room for mistakes, hence the need for adequate LR, good Skimmer, etc...these are all safety nets...you could run a reef without such stuff but your insurance policy wouldn't protect you much(QTs setup from MOST reefers have little to none insurance coverage, no LR, no skimmer, undersized tank, undersized media)...according to your criteria...I would estimate that over 50% of reefers shouldn't be in the hobby, those that do QT, don't really do it adquately correct...and this just one example, but I think I have exhausted the debate enough...cheers:beer:

 

[Stuart60611]

couldn't disagree more....

dosing cupramine in a tank where frequent water changes are required...hence re-dosing...is no where near comparison to a basic Display Tank duties..... 0.2 ppm off and your sensitive fish (dwarf lion) is in serious trouble...even how you hold the cupramine bottle to dispense the dosing drops has a large effect....none of this is basic, maintaining a DT grants way more room for mistakes, hence the need for adequate LR, good Skimmer, etc...these are all safety nets...you could run a reef without such stuff but your insurance policy wouldn't protect you much(QTs setup from MOST reefers have little to none insurance coverage, no LR, no skimmer, undersized tank, undersized media)...according to your criteria...I would estimate that over 50% of reefers shouldn't be in the hobby, those that do QT, don't really do it adquately correct...and this just one example, but I think I have exhausted the debate enough...cheers:beer:

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree, but we are not talking about a reef tank. We are talking about a single fish quarantine. If you have a large enough quarantine tank, you have plenty of water volume to cover a large margin for error with a single fish for bioload. With a single fish in a sufficiently large quarantine tank with a mature and sufficiently sized sponge biological filter, you will not need the asistance of a skimmer or rock to control nutrients and can easilty control the waste and nutrients created by a single fish. Plus, why do you have to make the process more challenging with an undersized quarantine tank, or an undersized or immature biological filter (especially when you can buy a large cheap plastic tub and sponge filter which can be biologically mature at all times and easily stored out of the way when not in use)? Moroever, dosing cupramine so as not to overdose is very easy, especially in a sufficiently large water volume in an adequately sized quarantine tank where you have plenty of water to work with. All you have to do is add very small amounts of cupramine, wait a while, and then test the water. Repeat as necessary. Virtually no chance of overdosing if you dose in very small increments and test after each dose. Once you get to the right cupramine level (and do not need to worry too much about geting exactly at the right level because cupramine has a very wide effective range), you will not have to do any re-dosing unless and until you do a water change. If you cannot complete that task correctly, I suspect you will not be able to maintain the display appropriately either because dosing calcium, buffers, and other things requires the same skill set. Nothing difficult at all to do and involves no more skill than testing the water for ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

People do not quarantine properly for several reasons. They are lazy and do not want to deal with a separate quarantine system. They have misconceptions about the costs, the ease of storing a quarantine system when not in use, and the difficulties in doing the quarantine process. They are impatient and want to immediately enjoy their new fish in the display rather than wait and go through the quarantine process. None of these reasons imo are justified. I have been lazy and impatient in this regard more than once, and both I and my fish have paid the price for doing so. I arrive at this conclusion the hard way after going about things the wrong way. Hopefully, others who read this thread will not have to learn this lesson in the same hard way that I did.

 

[steelhead77]

guess I'm another lottery winner....Actually I disagree with the above post and would turn 180 degrees to the complete opposite aspect...everyone that has a fish die of ich WILL post it....anyone that has success will likely not make a thread saying, "I BEAT ICH" people typically post problems looking for help, not successes (hence, this thread)....every tang of mine that has gotten ick, I simply feed well and keep water quality at best....they all have survived....I am not sure what people are doing to kill these fish that get ich....if the fish is eating, it will survive, no lottery here.....ich does not kill fish....stress, poor water quality, a fish purchased that wasn't eating, etc...kills.....I will NEVER QT again...way too much stress and has cost me a lot of fish that were otherwise healthy....maybe, just maybe I would QT if I had a 90 + gallon tank laying around, plus room in the house for it, an accepting wife of yet another tank, and all the time in the world to maintain two tanks.....sounds fun? also, while treating fish with copper that is highly toxic, weakens there immune system, and causes of great deal of stress to me......furthermore... after done with QT, you will find yourself putting the fish back in the tank, after going fishless for six weeks, only to get, yet again, a spec of free swimming ich in a water droplet on a newly purchased CUC ....etc...etc....etc...lol....btw, whoever said letting a fish fight off ich and go through that suffering is just nuts....Copper treatment and qt is WAY more suffering (I'd like to know how many of you that QT actually have the appropriate size tank to qt)....its like chemo...you practically have to kill the fish to kill the parasite....save the fish the stress, feed em well

SING IT BROTHER!!!!! For a few months now I think I have been the lone voice here making this EXACT same argument. Finally, I have someone who shares my viewpoint. Too many times folks on this site have been telling NEWBIES that they MUST reomove all fish, treat with copper and leave their DT fallow for 6-8 weeks, otherwise their tank is DOOMED! Too many times these same newbies have come back two days later to say their fish has died in QT! And of course they blame it on the ich. Compare this to those of us who have left the poor fish alone to fight it off and the successes we have had. Of course most of these Newbies are starting out with a 14 gallon Biocube as a DT and putting their fish into a 10 gallon QT and rarely are they equipped with the skill or knowledge to properly treat a diseased fish. And it always frustrates me to read where some people have 3 or 4 QT tanks set up for live rock or inverts or coral or whatever. Not many of us can A) afford this, B) have the room for this, and C) want to hassle wiith this. Believe it or not, I recently got into a discussion and got flamed pretty harshly for arguing that a 6 week QT for ALL live rock and snails is a little bit overkill. Good grief people! It seems that WAY too many people want to make this hobby MUCH more difficult than it needs to be.

Thanks bur01014 for the validation of my viewpoint and next time you see me get into a discussion about QT vs no QT, (which happens frequently) please chime in, I would appreciate the backup.

 

[Pallobi]

Good Luck with that

There are worse Contaminations than Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Always QT to be safe. Why risk disease or pests in your display tank?

You mention the size of the QT tank causing stress on the fish. How about the size of the tank it has been sitting in the LFS? How many months has the fish been the LFS tank?

Always QT to be safe and sure your fish/coral are healthy before introducing into the display tank. It also makes it easier to diagnose/treat a problem in a QT tank than it does in display tank.

i jus wana second this thought as ive chimed in previously... there is more and worse diseases / parasites that the fish could have that arent obvious to the naked eye... why would you wana risk any of it... and i agree with you Steelhead, a QT tank can stress your fish, absolutely... but then again that QT tank should NEVER be something silly like a 10 gallon or something small that most people will use... a good size QT tank and plenty of hiding spots, as i find PVC piping works great, and i dont think the stress on the fish would be too great... i will say, i only QT my fish for a short period, usually 7 days or less as i dont like to see them in there either... but again, it helps keep much more than just silly ich out of my systems...

your gonna get a ton of opinions here, and most, are valid and spoken from experience... but i repeat, MOST, NOT ALL...

again, there is so much more than can spread and kill fish other than ich... my only point i guess, is why chance it...
the ich you see may not kill your fish... but the numerous other things jus may kill them all... and that is on no one other than the keeper with bad husbandry...

Good luck to your Regal, they are quite beautiful... i am curious, as i didnt read every post here, is it even eating yet? i know they can be a real challenge... again, Good luck, sounds like you have one heck of a house for your pets :beer:

 

[Pallobi]

and i like stuart, have learned my lessons the hard way, this is how and why i come to my procedure and conclusions... my laziness and own negligence killed my fish... that is it...

 

[khaosinc]

Has anyone else shared my observation of ich not taking hold in a full SPS reef system? I did a quick search but didn't find any relevant threads. I kept the reef for over 8 yrs, never quarantined, and never had a serious ich outbreak. There were certainly a few spots now and then on newly introduced fish, so I wasn't simply lucky in always getting ich-free fish, but it never caught fire. What would the various camps in this debate conclude from this I wonder?

This is something I have always wondered about. Given the diversity of the reef, something always eats or otherwise keeps everything else in check. Something must eat ich, what it is I don't know. I doubt the cleaner shrimp or anything that big, but they may help with the wounds and help prevent infection where ick was. Something eats stuff that small, is it in my tank... no idea.

 

[Stuart60611]

Let me put this way. Name a single recognized authority or cite to a single published article or book which does not strongly recommend quarantine of every fish. You cannot because they do not exist.

Conversely, I can cite to more recognized authoriites, articles, and books which all unanimously recommend the quarantine of every fish than can be posted in a single message on RC.

Likewise, name a single public aquarium or zoo which does not quarantine every fish. You cannot because they all do.

What does this demonstrate? It demonstrates that every recognized authority in this hobby recommend the quarantine of every fish. For those who disagree, I guess you know more than every recognized authority, published article, book, public aquarium, or zoo in the world.

 

[wickedfish]

Feed heavier with garlic drops and good stuff your fish like and if he is not hiding you made it if he's hiding, well chances are not too good. I recently rescaped and the pt has ich, he will conquer it it's his 3 go round.

 

[Pallobi]

LOL if its his 3rd time with it, you have conquered nothing... its still there and he still has it... youve gotten rid of nothing...

 

[Pallobi]

Let me put this way. Name a single recognized authority or cite to a single published article or book which does not strongly recommend quarantine of every fish. You cannot because they do not exist.

Conversely, I can cite to more recognized authoriites, articles, and books which all unanimously recommend the quarantine of every fish than can be posted in a single message on RC.

Likewise, name a single public aquarium or zoo which does not quarantine every fish. You cannot because they all do.

What does this demonstrate? It demonstrates that every recognized authority in this hobby recommend the quarantine of every fish. For those who disagree, I guess you know more than every recognized authority, published article, book, public aquarium, or zoo in the world.

I'm not sure i could have said it any better.. actually i know it... great, undeniable point my friend...

in my case, I KNOW i have absolutly no ick whatsoever... all my rock went in dry.. all my sand dry... all of my corals came from tanks without ANY fish, and all of my fish have been QT'd...

jus sayin...

 

[Idle Moor]

Hey this is just like religion! You can't prove anything, at least not with the evidence available to the folks here, and everyone is struggling to be holier than thou! If you quarantine for 4 wks then I quarantine for 6! You quarantine your fish? I quarantine my rocks! Feel guilty and get out of the hobby now if you don't because you're abusing fish! Blather. Actually, it's just another version of the tang police.

As far as lack of ich in reefs goes, the two easier things to think of is that 1) the pristine water quality and diverse food sources these tanks provide make for some super healthy fish able to fight of the infections quickly, or 2) something is eating the ich at some stage in its life - although I would say that it is much more likely to be a stage where it is not on the fish. Perhaps free-swimming ich makes good coral food! Now all the reefers will want it.

If this experience is widespread then energy would be better invested in finding out why and applying it to all tanks that are desired to be ich-free.

 

[Pallobi]

well said Idle Moor...

 

[Stuart60611]

Hey this is just like religion! You can't prove anything, at least not with the evidence available to the folks here, and everyone is struggling to be holier than thou! If you quarantine for 4 wks then I quarantine for 6! You quarantine your fish? I quarantine my rocks! Feel guilty and get out of the hobby now if you don't because you're abusing fish! Blather. Actually, it's just another version of the tang police.

As far as lack of ich in reefs goes, the two easier things to think of is that 1) the pristine water quality and diverse food sources these tanks provide make for some super healthy fish able to fight of the infections quickly, or 2) something is eating the ich at some stage in its life - although I would say that it is much more likely to be a stage where it is not on the fish. Perhaps free-swimming ich makes good coral food! Now all the reefers will want it.

If this experience is widespread then energy would be better invested in finding out why and applying it to all tanks that are desired to be ich-free.

Your are right that many get emotional about this topic because so many fish die as result of not quarantining. I certainly am not preaching from a high horse b/c I, having not quarantined properly more than once, understand why hobbyiests elect not to do so. No one is trying to police anyone, and I have no problem with peoples' decissions to keep their fish in any way they choose. If you want to risk the health of your fish and likely have parasites in your display then that is your choice. I cannot say that I like such a decission, but I do not quarell whatsoever with making such a choice.

I have a real big problem, however, with people who insist that their failure to quarantine is rather a calculated decission based on years of experience which is motivated by looking out for the best interests of their fish. Such people often contend that quarantine is too difficult or costly to carry-out or that it is greater risk to the fish than not quarantining. This is utter nonsense and to me intelectually dishonest. If you want to cut corners at the risk of your fish that is your choice, but I find it somewhat offensive and morally bankrupt when people act as if they are doing so for the fish's benefit. This kind of baseless banter has real adverse consequences because many inexperienced hobbyiests actually believe it and decide to follow such practices thinking that they are best protecting the health of their fish. They get parasites in their displays, and fish die needlessly based on following misinformation. If you want to risk your fish that is your choice, but please do not risk other peoples by passing off misinformation.

 

[icliao]

Good luck to your Regal, they are quite beautiful... i am curious, as i didnt read every post here, is it even eating yet? i know they can be a real challenge... again, Good luck, sounds like you have one heck of a house for your pets :beer:

The regal is eating pallets just fine. It is strange that sometimes I see a lot of spots in the evening and sometimes much less in the morning.

I just lost the Flagfin whom I purchased along with the Regal (she eats pallets in the Lfs.)

All my other 7 fish which I have had them for 5 - 8 years have not a single spot.

I plan to do hypo salinity treatment if other fish start to show spots.

I do have a big 6 ft fiber glass which I kept all the fish while I cook the old rocks. They were doing fine for 3 months.

When I came back from 10 days vacation (the fish is tended by my mother with an auto-feeder),10 fish dead after keeping them for at least 5 years including a Powder blue, Flame angel, Flame hawk, Porter angel, Majestic angel and Cornate angel. Even strong fish such as Bangle cardinal, yellowtail damsels, Royal Gramma and percula clown died some I had since the beginning of the hobby.

I suppose maybe it was over crowded with 23 fish but the tank has almost 500 GL of water and filled with old rocks and I even uses my H&S A200 1260X2 skimmer.

By the way, the 10 ft tank has just been setup and running for 2 weeks but all the rocks were cooked for 3 months. I had to make the swift move because I am afraid of loosing more fish in the big QT tank. Currently I am "cooking" the QT tank pitch black after 100% water change to get ready for next fish purchase.

 

[bur01014]

If any of your tanks are ich-less...which I doubt they are and there is no way for you to prove this, it is a miracle and it won't last. Any inverts you buy and yes I assume you will eventually buy some because they just don't last long....will bring ich into your system. You can't possibly dry them out completely so there is not one micro droplet on them. Free swimming ich can and will easily get into your system. I don't know of a tank that doesn't have ich.....we can argue about this all night, but its my word against others.....there is little research done on common parasites found in home kept reef fish.....any that have been done lack compelling evidence, contain bias, confounding, etc......again, I have had several of my fish get ich and never has any of them died.....clean water and good nutrition.....I have done the QT route....I am still waiting to see some pics of some of these QTers.....let me see those little 29 gallon tanks with HOB filters and some PVC....sounds like nothing but a torture chamber for your fish with some white spots that WILL KILL! Don't get me started on black ich either....lol, simply harmless, your fish will survive if cared for properly and if you have a stable environment.

 

[bur01014]

Your are right that many get emotional about this topic because so many fish die as result of not quarantining. I certainly am not preaching from a high horse b/c I, having not quarantined properly more than once, understand why hobbyiests elect not to do so. No one is trying to police anyone, and I have no problem with peoples' decissions to keep their fish in any way they choose. If you want to risk the health of your fish and likely have parasites in your display then that is your choice. I cannot say that I like such a decission, but I do not quarell whatsoever with making such a choice.

I have a real big problem, however, with people who insist that their failure to quarantine is rather a calculated decission based on years of experience which is motivated by looking out for the best interests of their fish. Such people often contend that quarantine is too difficult or costly to carry-out or that it is greater risk to the fish than not quarantining. This is utter nonsense and to me intelectually dishonest. If you want to cut corners at the risk of your fish that is your choice, but I find it somewhat offensive and morally bankrupt when people act as if they are doing so for the fish's benefit. This kind of baseless banter has real adverse consequences because many inexperienced hobbyiests actually believe it and decide to follow such practices thinking that they are best protecting the health of their fish. They get parasites in their displays, and fish die needlessly based on following misinformation. If you want to risk your fish that is your choice, but please do not risk other peoples by passing off misinformation.

Stuart....I suggest you pass along information then, these articles you have, and be done with it. I myself will continue to give advice based on experience. That is what forums are for. People searching for advice. I still haven't heard any sound advice about QTs. Stop telling people to QT their fish, instead tell them how to QT. Furthermore, stop telling people if they don't QT their fish, they will die. This just isn't true or else I would have a tank full of dead fish, and many other reefers would fall into this position. Please don't mislead those seeking advice with flattering sentences and a passionate writing style.

 

[Stuart60611]

If any of your tanks are ich-less...which I doubt they are and there is no way for you to prove this, it is a miracle and it won't last. Any inverts you buy and yes I assume you will eventually buy some because they just don't last long....will bring ich into your system. You can't possibly dry them out completely so there is not one micro droplet on them. Free swimming ich can and will easily get into your system. I don't know of a tank that doesn't have ich.....we can argue about this all night, but its my word against others.....there is little research done on common parasites found in home kept reef fish.....any that have been done lack compelling evidence, contain bias, confounding, etc......again, I have had several of my fish get ich and never has any of them died.....clean water and good nutrition.....I have done the QT route....I am still waiting to see some pics of some of these QTers.....let me see those little 29 gallon tanks with HOB filters and some PVC....sounds like nothing but a torture chamber for your fish with some white spots that WILL KILL! Don't get me started on black ich either....lol, simply harmless, your fish will survive if cared for properly and if you have a stable environment.

Now you have opened up a whole new can of worms. :fun2: Ever hear of a nonfish quarantine. Even easier to maintain for non coral inverts than a fish quarantine and merely requires keeping the inverts in a fish free system for 4 weeks. As for corals, you obviously need a decent light which adds some expense. A reasonable and reliable alternative is to dip the coral before adding it to the display which greatly reduces the chances of infecting the display with a parasite. Also, as mentioned more than once by others above, quarantine is not just about ich but is also about protecting the display from many other parasites. You are right that it is impossible to prove your display is ich free. However, many people follow these quarantine procedures and have never observed any sign of a parasite in their displays which all the proof you can achieve that a display is parasite free.

 

[bur01014]

Now you have opened up a whole new can of worms. :fun2: Ever hear of a nonfish quarantine. Even easier to maintain for non coral inverts than a fish quarantine and merely requires keeping the inverts in a fish free system for 4 weeks. As for corals, you obviously need a decent light which adds some expense. A reasonable and reliable alternative is to dip the coral before adding it to the display which greatly reduces the chances of infecting the display with a parasite. Lastly, as mentioned more than once by others, quarantine is not just about ich but is also about protecting the display from many other parasites.

Okay, so in addition to your 75 gallon DT, you need a 75 gallon QT with proper copper dosing, biological filtration, and frequent waterchanges, that should only house one fish. Next, you need another QT for inverts, because you can't put them into a QT that has ever housed copper or your just stupid. Furthermore good luck on feeding this invert QT tank, running to the LFS for constant water or running your RODI unit for waterchanges on three tanks.....two of which will need fairly frequent waterchanges......you must have a lot of time on your hand and enjoy taking calculated risks....those are some good worms....that all sounds REALLY easy for the basic hobbyiest....welcome to the hobby, now go buy two more tanks and a few hundred more bucks in equipment....this is not realistic....don't forget your sumps and fuge tanks either.....let your wife know, you don't run an LFS out of your home, you just love killing parasites

 

[Stuart60611]

Okay, so in addition to your 75 gallon DT, you need a 75 gallon QT with proper copper dosing, biological filtration, and frequent waterchanges, that should only house one fish. Next, you need another QT for inverts, because you can't put them into a QT that has ever housed copper or your just stupid. Furthermore good luck on feeding this invert QT tank, running to the LFS for constant water or running your RODI unit for waterchanges on three tanks.....two of which will need fairly frequent waterchanges......you must have a lot of time on your hand and enjoy taking calculated risks....those are some good worms....that all sounds REALLY easy for the basic hobbyiest....welcome to the hobby, now go buy two more tanks and a few hundred more bucks in equipment....this is not realistic....

You need two plastic tubs, several filter sponges which are disposed of when exposed to copper or other medicine, and one hang of the back filter. You use one plastic tub whenever you quarantine a fish which is not all that frequent. You only use this tub for fish because it may be exposed to copper. You do not keep this tub set up when not in use. Fill it with display tank water and a sponge which has been in your display for a couple weeks, and you are ready to go. You use the other tub for inverts and corals which can be much smaller because inverts do not need as much space. Your invert tub can always be set up for ease if you add inverts frequently or set up on the fly in about 1 hour or less when you need to do so. Not expensive or difficult at all. All you need to do is keep a couple of sponges in your display or sump all the time so you can set up either tub immediately with a mature biological filter. You can store this stuff out of the way when not in use. Now with corals, you probably want more water volume so that you can keep water quality high enough without constantly changing the water so diping may be a better option for corals. However, with non coral inverts, macro, or rock, you can easily get by with a bare bones small tub. A five gallon bucket with a powerhead and some rock from the display often is adequate for many non coral inverts for quarantine. Most people have that immediately on hand. Keeping water quality high in a non-fish quarantine is much easier because in addition to the sponge you can use rock from your display for biological filtration b/c no medicine is being used. You can usually accomplish a newly set up non-fish 4 week quarantine if you use rock from the display without having to do a single water change.