Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

[JPMagyar]

Hi Joe,

This was one of my favorites, a lagoon set up. Ran nicely for a number of years, until I had to tear it down to move.

I'll try dig through some old files for some shots from the reef when I get a bit more time.

Here are some random shots of mine:

Thanks Guys! Clearly trace elements are not the "Be all; End all" of captive reefs.

This is exactly what I saw in Antigua last February. I was very disappointed. It was mostly over run with Seargent fish

I can't help but think of the scene in the movie Matrix where the matrix agent explains how humans are a virus on their planet; doesn't seem impossible when viewed from the point of view of destruction of ecosystems.

I'm not sure I'm ready to be a native American in terms of lifestyle but their is something to be said for living in harmony with your environment.

 

[saf1]

I'm not sure I'm ready to be a native American in terms of lifestyle but their is something to be said for living in harmony with your environment.

Can't solve the worlds problem and in some cases it is human error on the too many rules side trying to play God when Mother Nature can take care of itself. The ocean makes up what, about 70% of the surface area of planet earth? Some how I don't think we know Jack about it.

Some of the wreck dives I've done, and oil rigs, have more life than I've seen on natural reefs. Hawaii - horrible diving. Not mother natures fault just ignorance in politics. Dive Monterey and see properly managed parks and reefs (and I really dislike our system but they at least did that right).

Just saying humans do more harm by thinking they are doing right...

 

[tmz]

Sorry, but no. Sponges, gorgonians, and even macroalgae have always been abundant on healthy reefs. While certain inshore reefs have indeed seen degradation from land based nutrient inputs, a far larger problem has been a loss of natural algae grazers...the diadema wipeout (disease) in the mid 80's, and overfishing of parrot fish are most notable. That resulting lack of grazing has allowed algae (that was already quite abundant on healthy reefs) to begin to dominate on many reefs.

Hey Bill,

I agree grazers are a very important I think the nutrient issue might have effected their populations in a negative way somehow, though.

Speculating:

As I recall the diadema issue: the diadema poluation surged before succumbing to a plague of unknown origin. Perhaps, the start of the reef's decline was abundant food sources(algae) brought on by copiotrophic water followed by overpopulation by these grazers and then disease. Then in the end algae won.

 

[Nano sapiens]

^ I have seen this effect in my aquarium after a 2 week vacation and my autofeeder dumped too many pellets in the tank. One would expect that the number of scavengers would increase in such a situation, but the opposite was true as most of the normal bristleworm population and other scavengers were strangely absent while algae and cyanobacteria were flourishing. Resident scavenger populations eventually rebounded, but only after a few months of diligent removal of excess nutrients to clear the algae blooms.

 

[Meii]

Rather Deep Sand Bed

Rather Deep Sand Bed

After much time lurking I've finally registered to ask just this.

I'm building a new system with the intention of having an 8+ inch sand bed. I keep very low stock and build all custom filtration to suit my needs.

I intend to use an under substrate filter in reverse flow to accommodate the rather deep sand bed and prevent unusual toxic build ups. This appears to be what birch aquarium does for it's garden eel exhibit. I'm of the lazy hobbyist breed and this will by 15th or so reef tank in the quest for minimal maintenance. (My tank now is a series of 4 plumbed together 55 gallon drums over run with coral. Making living room room for the new set up) Stock is two black clowns, a few sapphires, an aggressive fish I'm deemed "jerk-fish", 2 sea hares, 2 Mandarin dragonettes, clean up crew and a couple cucumbers. Basically the stock of my 130g (which had a 240g filter).

My intention is to increase the end population by 6-10 garden eels adding in pairs. Refurbishing my clean up crew. Another pair of clowns, pigmy flounders, blennies and various bottom dwellers. 280-400g Corner tank with rock epoxied to the walls of the tank to allow for a massively open sand bed (12-18 sq feet).

All that being read. Various details missing.

With your collective experience using Reverse flow UGF, opinions on if RUGF is a wise choice in supplemental filtration? (Main filter will be chambered 130g Filter with 165g capacity)

 

[Bilk]

After much time lurking I've finally registered to ask just this.

I'm building a new system with the intention of having an 8+ inch sand bed. I keep very low stock and build all custom filtration to suit my needs.

I intend to use an under substrate filter in reverse flow to accommodate the rather deep sand bed and prevent unusual toxic build ups. This appears to be what birch aquarium does for it's garden eel exhibit. I'm of the lazy hobbyist breed and this will by 15th or so reef tank in the quest for minimal maintenance. (My tank now is a series of 4 plumbed together 55 gallon drums over run with coral. Making living room room for the new set up) Stock is two black clowns, a few sapphires, an aggressive fish I'm deemed "jerk-fish", 2 sea hares, 2 Mandarin dragonettes, clean up crew and a couple cucumbers. Basically the stock of my 130g (which had a 240g filter).

My intention is to increase the end population by 6-10 garden eels adding in pairs. Refurbishing my clean up crew. Another pair of clowns, pigmy flounders, blennies and various bottom dwellers. 280-400g Corner tank with rock epoxied to the walls of the tank to allow for a massively open sand bed (12-18 sq feet).

All that being read. Various details missing.

With your collective experience using Reverse flow UGF, opinions on if RUGF is a wise choice in supplemental filtration? (Main filter will be chambered 130g Filter with 165g capacity)

Is the only return to the tank via the UGF or is there another return also feeding the tank? How much return water can pass thru the 8" UGF per hour?

 

[oldreefer76]

After much time lurking I've finally registered to ask just this.

I'm building a new system with the intention of having an 8+ inch sand bed. I keep very low stock and build all custom filtration to suit my needs.

I intend to use an under substrate filter in reverse flow to accommodate the rather deep sand bed and prevent unusual toxic build ups. This appears to be what birch aquarium does for it's garden eel exhibit. I'm of the lazy hobbyist breed and this will by 15th or so reef tank in the quest for minimal maintenance. (My tank now is a series of 4 plumbed together 55 gallon drums over run with coral. Making living room room for the new set up) Stock is two black clowns, a few sapphires, an aggressive fish I'm deemed "jerk-fish", 2 sea hares, 2 Mandarin dragonettes, clean up crew and a couple cucumbers. Basically the stock of my 130g (which had a 240g filter).

My intention is to increase the end population by 6-10 garden eels adding in pairs. Refurbishing my clean up crew. Another pair of clowns, pigmy flounders, blennies and various bottom dwellers. 280-400g Corner tank with rock epoxied to the walls of the tank to allow for a massively open sand bed (12-18 sq feet).

All that being read. Various details missing.

With your collective experience using Reverse flow UGF, opinions on if RUGF is a wise choice in supplemental filtration? (Main filter will be chambered 130g Filter with 165g capacity)

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711320&page=126
This thread should answer your qustions

 

[Meii]

Yes Please

Yes Please

Is the only return to the tank via the UGF or is there another return also feeding the tank? How much return water can pass thru the 8" UGF per hour?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for the second question. A wood chuck would chuck as much wood as it could chuck before throwing substrate everywhere making a mess...

I intend on running a larger pump sucking directly after the mechanical filtration. Before the Chemical and Biological. This will pump back into the tank through 5 outlets, 4 in the tank to replace wired in-tank directional power heads and 1 under the sand bed to a very large series of spray bars wrapped in a mesh. Pressure and flow regulated by ball joint valves.

A second pump will draw from the Filter's collection tank post mech., bio., and chem. filtration. It will feed another 2 wall mount bulkheads with spray bars and a few Venturi fittings for penetrating flow.

The Filter is a three cell modular unit:
:collection and return. (Pumps water level, sensors)
:Algae and O exchange. (Only area without an acrylic floating lid to prevent/limit excessive evaporation. Even the Main tank will have this.)
:Filter (Filter)

The intention is to create a deep sand bed for Garden eels. As well as reduce the need for live rock by turning the whole tank into a very slow churning reactor. Most importantly prevent a future chemical-shock related crash.

I know this is a lot, I would appreciate any input and experience.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711320&page=126
This thread should answer your qustions

Thank you for that, 126 pages later I find a link to myself.

 

[Meii]

Yes Please

Yes Please

Is the only return to the tank via the UGF or is there another return also feeding the tank? How much return water can pass thru the 8" UGF per hour?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for the second question. A wood chuck would chuck as much wood as it could chuck before throwing substrate everywhere making a mess...

I intend on running a larger pump sucking directly after the mechanical filtration. Before the Chemical and Biological. This will pump back into the tank through 5 outlets, 4 in the tank to replace wired in-tank directional power heads and 1 under the sand bed to a very large series of spray bars wrapped in a mesh. Pressure and flow regulated by ball joint valves.

A second pump will draw from the Filter's collection tank post mech., bio., and chem. filtration. It will feed another 2 wall mount bulkheads with spray bars and a few Venturi fittings for penetrating flow.

The Filter is a three cell modular unit:
:collection and return. (Pumps water level, sensors)
:Algae and O exchange. (Only area without an acrylic floating lid to prevent/limit excessive evaporation. Even the Main tank will have this.)
:Filter (Filter)

The intention is to create a deep sand bed for Garden eels. As well as reduce the need for live rock by turning the whole tank into a very slow churning reactor. Most importantly prevent a future chemical-shock related crash.

I know this is a lot, I would appreciate any input and experience.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711320&page=126
This thread should answer your qustions

Thank you for that, 126 pages later I find a link to myself.

 

[Bilk]

I'm not really sure what you're asking for the second question. A wood chuck would chuck as much wood as it could chuck before throwing substrate everywhere making a mess...

I intend on running a larger pump sucking directly after the mechanical filtration. Before the Chemical and Biological. This will pump back into the tank through 5 outlets, 4 in the tank to replace wired in-tank directional power heads and 1 under the sand bed to a very large series of spray bars wrapped in a mesh. Pressure and flow regulated by ball joint valves.

A second pump will draw from the Filter's collection tank post mech., bio., and chem. filtration. It will feed another 2 wall mount bulkheads with spray bars and a few Venturi fittings for penetrating flow.

The Filter is a three cell modular unit:
:collection and return. (Pumps water level, sensors)
:Algae and O exchange. (Only area without an acrylic floating lid to prevent/limit excessive evaporation. Even the Main tank will have this.)
:Filter (Filter)

The intention is to create a deep sand bed for Garden eels. As well as reduce the need for live rock by turning the whole tank into a very slow churning reactor. Most importantly prevent a future chemical-shock related crash.

I know this is a lot, I would appreciate any input and experience.



Thank you for that, 126 pages later I find a link to myself.

You answered the question. UGF return is supplemental as you will also have other outlets in the tank. Gotcha!

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm not really sure what you're asking for the second question. A wood chuck would chuck as much wood as it could chuck before throwing substrate everywhere making a mess...

I intend on running a larger pump sucking directly after the mechanical filtration. Before the Chemical and Biological. This will pump back into the tank through 5 outlets, 4 in the tank to replace wired in-tank directional power heads and 1 under the sand bed to a very large series of spray bars wrapped in a mesh. Pressure and flow regulated by ball joint valves.

A second pump will draw from the Filter's collection tank post mech., bio., and chem. filtration. It will feed another 2 wall mount bulkheads with spray bars and a few Venturi fittings for penetrating flow.

The Filter is a three cell modular unit:
:collection and return. (Pumps water level, sensors)
:Algae and O exchange. (Only area without an acrylic floating lid to prevent/limit excessive evaporation. Even the Main tank will have this.)
:Filter (Filter)

The intention is to create a deep sand bed for Garden eels. As well as reduce the need for live rock by turning the whole tank into a very slow churning reactor. Most importantly prevent a future chemical-shock related crash.

I know this is a lot, I would appreciate any input and experience.



Thank you for that, 126 pages later I find a link to myself.

Yes but such a great read:fun2::bounce3:

 

[Bilk]

I thouhgt it would be a good idea to post this article here for further discussion. I've read through it once and am still digesting the information - pun intended However this was always my understanding of how DSBs work and why I incorporated one in my latest system.

I feed rather heavily and never see an appreciable rise in NO3 and often need to give a a boost in order to maintain a PO4 level within an acceptable range.

Nitrogen Cycling Revisited: Sand, critters, carbon, and why you may be under-feeding your tank

 

[gregrocks79]

I thouhgt it would be a good idea to post this article here for further discussion. I've read through it once and am still digesting the information - pun intended However this was always my understanding of how DSBs work and why I incorporated one in my latest system.



I feed rather heavily and never see an appreciable rise in NO3 and often need to give a a boost in order to maintain a PO4 level within an acceptable range.



Nitrogen Cycling Revisited: Sand, critters, carbon, and why you may be under-feeding your tank

That's an awesome article! Thanks for sharing

 

[b7fig]

After spending a few hours reading this thread, I'll put my .02 cent in.
I had a 70 gal with a 6 in DSB I had running for 5 years and never had any problems. Rarely had a fish die and my LPS were doing great. All my baby fish had grown up and needed a larger home. So I set up 180 gallon tank. It had been cycling for a few weeks and wanted to seed it with some live sand and rock from my 70 gallon.

I pulled out a few pieces of live rock and a large 32 ounce cup of the sand out of the 70 gallon. In less then 5 minutes, I lost all but 1 fish and he barely made it. There was that much toxic waste in the sand. Mind you, I did not stir up all the sand, just scooped out one large cup full on one side of the tank.

If there was that much toxic stuff in that little of sand, it can't be good for the system.

I now run a 1 inch shallow sand bed.

 

[gregrocks79]

After spending a few hours reading this thread, I'll put my .02 cent in.
I had a 70 gal with a 6 in DSB I had running for 5 years and never had any problems. Rarely had a fish die and my LPS were doing great. All my baby fish had grown up and needed a larger home. So I set up 180 gallon tank. It had been cycling for a few weeks and wanted to seed it with some live sand and rock from my 70 gallon.

I pulled out a few pieces of live rock and a large 32 ounce cup of the sand out of the 70 gallon. In less then 5 minutes, I lost all but 1 fish and he barely made it. There was that much toxic waste in the sand. Mind you, I did not stir up all the sand, just scooped out one large cup full on one side of the tank.

If there was that much toxic stuff in that little of sand, it can't be good for the system.

I now run a 1 inch shallow sand bed.

Wow that sucks. But good to know!!! I'm glad I have a shallow sand bed in the tank and in the fuge!! Crazy how that small amount of stirring + toxicity would kill everything that fast!! This answered so many of my questions.

Sorry for your loss

 

[JOHNI1CARS]

I found a dead sifting star fish in my aquarium, is that what happened to him. Mind you I have snails that are constanly burrowing in the sand and they are doing well and reproducing. I have had a 2-3 inch sand bed for 5years.

 

[b7fig]

Sand star

Sand star

Probably not. Not knowing about your tank or history hard to say, but Sand stars are hard to keep in all but the largest established aquariums. They usually starve to death after a while.

 

[ShannyG]

I was experiencing a weird spike that threatened my whole tank right before my leak started. I moved everything over but the sand, and now my levels are perfect. And this was in a new tank. I don't think I'll bother with a sand bed again. I like the clean look of a BB tank, and it lets me know just how much I'm overfeeding.

 

[ReadyRock]

hey everyone I am new to the saltwater tank hobby still trying to convert my freshwater tank over. with that being said i am trying to do my homework before I actually get my tank up and running. I have been talking to people currently in the hobby and the topic about deep sand beds came up to help remove nitrates. with that being said i totally understand that there is the potential for gases to build up in the sand and once unsettled possibly release harmful gas. so now here is my question. when running a deep sand bed in your fuge why not just have some sand sifters in there to constantly move the sand and to eat anything that may settle? just a thought not sure if it would work or not. just was thinking its just like a tank or anything you have to take care of it for it to be efficient. let me know what you think.

 

[billsreef]

Having a good assortment of worms, amphipods, nasarius snails, and other such sand bed fauna to keep stirring and processing the detritis/food in the sand bed is indeed key to a proper running sand bed