My dinoflagellate eradication process.... (seeking input)

[JCareyETexas]

So, I have come to the conclusion that I have dinoflagellates but am unsure of the species. I believe it to be one of the toxic variety as all of my snails that have ended up in the stuff have ended up dead.
I tried "blacking" the tank out for 3 days, today was the first day of lights and wow did the tank look great! By this afternoon I am starting to see the dinos reemerging.
I want these things gone, and I really want them gone asap.
My idea: All of my research has indicated that there really isn't a "cure" or treatment that has worked across the board, save one, exposure to fresh water. My thought is to quarantine my fish after doing a fresh water dip to kill any dinos that may be hitching a ride (can I freshwater dip my shrimp, hermit crabs, and gsp encrusted rock as well?). After my organisms are out I plan to drain the display, replace my sugar fine substrate with aragonite (which I've been wanting to do) then fill back up with RO/DI water which I'm assuming will amount to around 90 gallons of fresh water. I then plan to run the system with the fresh water for around an hour which, if my research is correct, should kill any species of dino that exists. After about an hour I plan to drain about 50 gallons and replace with 50 gallons hyper-saline water to bring my SG up to par. Acknowledging this process will kill all micro-fauna/flora in the system I will have to allow the tank to go through another cycle after which time I will reintroduce my livestock.
I am open to other ideas, looking for constructive criticism, etc...
What is the consensus on the need to "cleanse" my livestock of dinos?
Thanks for reading.

 

[Angelos Christo]

Algae x of Fauna marine solved my problem of Dino's

 

[Aquarist007]

You might find some help on this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000

 

[davidfrances]

One of my 250G DT's kept coming down with dino's and ich. I finally decided to do the same thing you are contemplating.

Due to the Ich, I had previously removed all the fish to improvised QT systems and treated them to a 20 day round of cupramine. Then I moved the fish to my frag system.

I tried everything on my DT, including blackout, Algae X, even bought something called DinoXAL and imported it from Germany. The dino's just smiled and asked for more.

I only had about a half dozen corals left at this point, so I gave those a freshwater dip and placed them in my frag system.

Last weekend I removed my base rock, and treated it to a bleach and acid treatment, then let them dry on my patio. I vacuumed out the sand and threw it away, and used a mild bleach solution to wash down the tanks, sump, and all my equipment. I filled the tank with fresh RODI water, and ran the tank and equipment for the last 24 hours on pure fresh water.

Tonight I replaced my base rock and added new sand. I also added some Prime to neutralize any residual chlorine. I will add the salt tomorrow and restart the cycle.

Hopefully this will work, because everything else I tried was a waste of time and $.

Good luck.

 

[dkeller_nc]

One thing to consider is that while your plan for your display tank is likely to nuke everything, including the dinos, there's a distinct possibility you'll transfer some spores to the quarantine tank with the fish, and then reintroduce them to your display tank.

What you might consider instead is the removal of fish/coral/inverts to a QT, removing your sandbed to remove any nutrients it might be hiding, then aggressively running GFO to remove all traces of phosphate, while simultaneously blacking out the tank for a couple of weeks. That would at least preserve the bacterial base and possibly some of the micro-fauna on the rocks.

 

[Bilk]

What is the age of the system? What is the flow in the tank? What methods do you use for nutrient export? What type of lighting and spectrum is used over the tank? What is the substrate if any?

You should provide more info on the system and possibly some pics, so people here could better help find a solution or see something that might be amiss.

I know sometimes there's nothing short of nuking the system to get rid of some nasty dino cases, but I think many times there's a way to beat it by simply making a few changes such as increasing flow in the tank and introducing something to compete for nutrients, such as an ATS or carbon dosing. I think products such as Prodibio have a regimen that can also help. If the system is young, this might just be a phase that will exhaust itself.

 

[philosophile]

I cleared out my Dinos with lights out, no water changes, dosing of prodibio bioclean, and manual siphoning into a sock. It took about a month of work, but I didn't have to dismantle or re-cycle the tank.

 

[davidfrances]

One thing to consider is that while your plan for your display tank is likely to nuke everything, including the dinos, there's a distinct possibility you'll transfer some spores to the quarantine tank with the fish, and then reintroduce them to your display tank.

What you might consider instead is the removal of fish/coral/inverts to a QT, removing your sandbed to remove any nutrients it might be hiding, then aggressively running GFO to remove all traces of phosphate, while simultaneously blacking out the tank for a couple of weeks. That would at least preserve the bacterial base and possibly some of the micro-fauna on the rocks.

While there is the possibility that you will transfer the dino spores into the QT tank, and then back to the DT with the fish after the cycle, don't you run this risk with every new introduction, to one degree or another?

In my case, since I also had some out-brakes of ich, after a 20 day round of cupramine in my QT system, I transferred my fish to my frag system. If the dino spores make it into my frag system, I should see some evidence of them during the time it takes to run the cycle. I run my frag system slightly dirty, because I grow out softies.

Before nuking my DT, I suppose I could have tried a 2-3 week blackout, but since the dino's had wiped out all (most) of my corals and overwhelmed my base rock - considering my tank was also in a fallow period because of ich, going nuclear and restarting the cycle seemed like a better option for me.

Now I can be more certain that not only is the ich gone, but so are the dino's.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[TangySushi]

I got rid of dinos with the 3 day lights out as well. It took going lights out 3 different times spread out every 3 weeks. Inbetween lights out I would remove as much as I could with a turkey baster(almost daily) and even rescaped the rocks to get all the dinos trapped under the rocks. I also picked up a clean up crew from reefcleaners with hermit crabs and they went to town keeping the sand clean.

After not knowing what kind of algae it was and growing it for 6 months, I've now been dino clear for about 3 months. Was allot of work, but definately worth it. I came across this video the other day mrsaltwatertv about a cure for dinos, not sure if that works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcNuVTp32jE

 

[dkeller_nc]

While there is the possibility that you will transfer the dino spores into the QT tank, and then back to the DT with the fish after the cycle, don't you run this risk with every new introduction, to one degree or another?

Yeah, that's kind of my point. If conditions are hospitable to the growth of algae/dinos/cyano, it's pretty difficult to prevent. One might well go through a complete annihilation of the life in the tank by chemical means, only to have the same problem again shortly after another cycle.

 

[JCareyETexas]

What is the age of the system? Up and running >3 years What is the flow in the tank? Lots, mag 12 return pump and two mp40s in display What methods do you use for nutrient export? Skimmer and bio pellet reactor What type of lighting and spectrum is used over the tank? I'm running hydra 52's, favoring blue in my spectral output What is the substrate if any? Sugar fine sand :uhoh2: I believe I referenced in my original post that I saw this as an opportune time to change out my substrate
You should provide more info on the system and possibly some pics, so people here could better help find a solution or see something that might be amiss.

I know sometimes there's nothing short of nuking the system to get rid of some nasty dino cases, but I think many times there's a way to beat it by simply making a few changes such as increasing flow in the tank and introducing something to compete for nutrients, such as an ATS or carbon dosing. I think products such as Prodibio have a regimen that can also help. If the system is young, this might just be a phase that will exhaust itself.

Please see answers to your questions in above.

My purpose of wanting to jump to "nuke" phase is to avoid the time and money wasted in attempting methods backed by anecdotal success at best. Correct me if I'm wrong but exposure to fresh water is the end all of end all for dinos regardless of species. What are the thoughts on being able to salvage what coral I have left with a quick fresh water dip? Will that, along with dipping the fish be able to eradicate any survivors hitching a ride?

 

[JCareyETexas]

Yeah, that's kind of my point. If conditions are hospitable to the growth of algae/dinos/cyano, it's pretty difficult to prevent. One might well go through a complete annihilation of the life in the tank by chemical means, only to have the same problem again shortly after another cycle.

I think my mistake was letting the water get "too clean". I am either going to modify my existing bio pellet reactor to be a recirculating reactor and limit the access the bio pellets have to my tank water or I am going to nix the bio pellets all together and go with GFO instead. That way my phosphates will be under control but my nitrates should be able to go a bit higher.

 

[Bilk]

Please see answers to your questions in above.

My purpose of wanting to jump to "nuke" phase is to avoid the time and money wasted in attempting methods backed by anecdotal success at best. Correct me if I'm wrong but exposure to fresh water is the end all of end all for dinos regardless of species. What are the thoughts on being able to salvage what coral I have left with a quick fresh water dip? Will that, along with dipping the fish be able to eradicate any survivors hitching a ride?

Sorry I missed the sand/substrate part in the OP. I don't think FW dip for the corals is a good idea. Some can handle short dips and others not so much. Actually the only FW dips I've done were to zoas that had some nidibranchs. They did tolerate it and the nudis were eradicated.

If I did find myself battling this, breaking down a 3+ year old system would be my last option. I'd certainly try the fixes before that. Especially so if there was ample livestock that could be lost in a breakdown, during the holdover.

The return pump is not really considered as a flow pump. However the two MP40s should be providing ample flow for a 125g. Maybe changing their placement within the tank could help along with redirecting the flow. If you're running them in wave maker mode, or any of the other modes, I would stop and just use good laminar flow for now and see if that disturbs the growth. I'd also try introducing something that will compete with the dynos or try the Prodibio product.

Good luck with what ever route you choose.

 

[DNA]

I predict a 99,99% success which is a failure when it comes to dinos.
Check out jedimasterben's story before you start.

You probably have millions of microscopic dinos and some of them will be deep within the rock where the treatment can't reach them.

 

[davidfrances]

I predict a 99,99% success which is a failure when it comes to dinos.
Check out jedimasterben's story before you start.

You probably have millions of microscopic dinos and some of them will be deep within the rock where the treatment can't reach them.

Well, this was clearly the least helpful post of this entire thread.

I read jedimasterben's story. While sad, and all too familiar, I seem to have missed where he provided a solution to this problem.

DNA - Do you have a solution to offer? I read your story as well. In fact, on 8/30/2013, you wrote:

"I agree the lack of solid information and the fact there are no concrete solutions to the problem is very frustrating. After all that I have done to minimize them it seems like there is no cure this tank disease. The theories that pop up are endless and many so far fetched it ridiculous."

Is there a solution?

 

[reefgeezer]

I think my mistake was letting the water get "too clean". I am either going to modify my existing bio pellet reactor to be a recirculating reactor and limit the access the bio pellets have to my tank water or I am going to nix the bio pellets all together and go with GFO instead. That way my phosphates will be under control but my nitrates should be able to go a bit higher.

It's really not about too clean or the level of free nitrates or phosphates. Understanding the difference between Dino's and algae is important, Algae (plants) uptake nutrients that are not bound to any other compound (free). This is what shows in your tests. Dino's (bacteria) can and do uptake nutrients that are bound in organic compounds. These don't show up in your tests. While carbon dosing in any form can reduce free nutrients, it also increases organic compounds that the Dino's feed on.

Black outs do work, but the darkness has to be practically absolute and maintained for several days followed by a slow ramp of the light back to normal duration not jut three. AND... something must be done to reduce the organics available to them. Sucking out the Dinos just before starting the black out exports a lot of those organics. Using GAC and changing it often also deprives them of some organics and deals with some toxins that my be released when they die. Stopping carbon dosing is also required. I know this is anecdotal but it worked for me. I started carbon dosing again only after I was sure the Dino's were gone.

 

[DNA]

Is there a solution?

For some there seem to be, but they don't provide what dinos they have and that's why others can't get anywhere with their information.
If there is no success with their methods you simply have something else.

My story is about Ostreopsis and I have to live with it hoping for a divine intervention or a clever idea.

 

[JCareyETexas]

Sorry I missed the sand/substrate part in the OP. I don't think FW dip for the corals is a good idea. Some can handle short dips and others not so much. Actually the only FW dips I've done were to zoas that had some nidibranchs. They did tolerate it and the nudis were eradicated.

If I did find myself battling this, breaking down a 3+ year old system would be my last option. I'd certainly try the fixes before that. Especially so if there was ample livestock that could be lost in a breakdown, during the holdover.

The return pump is not really considered as a flow pump. However the two MP40s should be providing ample flow for a 125g. Maybe changing their placement within the tank could help along with redirecting the flow. If you're running them in wave maker mode, or any of the other modes, I would stop and just use good laminar flow for now and see if that disturbs the growth. I'd also try introducing something that will compete with the dynos or try the Prodibio product.

Good luck with what ever route you choose.

The "advantage" I'd have (if I can get away with calling it that) is that my bio load is pretty low right now. The dinos killed my tang, >90% of my snails, the majority of my coral was simply choked out by the beast. The only livestock I have now is my one-spot foxface, a melanarus wrasse, two clownfish, a couple snails, and a handful of shrimp. My two remaining coral colonies are a rock encrusted with gsp's, another rock covered in polyps, and a couple shrooms here and there.

 

[JCareyETexas]

I predict a 99,99% success which is a failure when it comes to dinos.
Check out jedimasterben's story before you start.

You probably have millions of microscopic dinos and some of them will be deep within the rock where the treatment can't reach them.

I wonder if I were to go ahead and bleach the rock for a day or two, turning it regularly to attempt the most penetration into the rock possible if that would suffice in killing any dinos that may be deep in the rock.

 

[JCareyETexas]

I think I am going to try Fauna Marin Ultra Algae X before I do the nuke process. Seems like users have reported slightly more consistent success using this product than other methods used.