Sump Advice Wanted

[The Shaman]

It's me again. This time I could use you guys expertise on sumps. This is what I'll be working with:
Main tank - 50g(36"x18"x18")
Sump - 24g(24"x18"x12")
Both tanks have corner overflows and a 1.75" hole near the top of the tank. I'm not sure what size tubing will be used. I'm guessing 1.5" or 1 5/8". With that size tubing I'm thinking that I'll have to much flow and will probably need a valve to slow it down a bit.
**Disclaimer: I know jack about setting up a sump!**
I have read Larry's sump page and think I have a good grasp on how things are supposed to work, but don't know about the particulars. This is where I could use some advice. Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated!

 

[FOX]

All you need to do is put in pvc valves(gate valves are better, but you can use ball valves) in both the overflow line and return line. When you first fire it up, leave everything wide open and see what happens. If the overflow can't keep up with the pump, close the valve on the return line slightly until you reach equilibrium. If the pump isn't keeping up with the overflow(not likely) close of the valve on the overflow slightly.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm

 

[Larry M]

I have to disagree with FOX on this one. I don't recommend anyone using ball valves on a syphon line. I tried it once and flooded my tank rapidly. If you have to go this route, a gate valve would be more precise. Even then, be sure to keep them clean so they don't clog up.
Shaman: On the 50 a 1" syphon line and 1/2 or 3/4" return line would be plenty. You wouldn't need them that big on the smaller tank.

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef

 

[BristolWorm]

Where is the sump going to be? All this valve stuff may be unecessary. I simply run the overflow into the sump and return it back with a pump. Thats all there is to it. I would use the gate valve if you ever plan on seperating the systems. You could use a ball valve on the return side to make sure your pump doesn't overrun the overflows, but I wouldn't recommend it as it will put unecessary back pressure on the pump. Making sure the overflow can handle the return is key. Think of it this way. If the power goes out you want to make sure you have enough room in the sump to handle whatever water flows over and make sure your pump won't overrun your overflows when it starts back up. (The later really shouldn't ever happen). What type of return pump are you going to use?



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BW

 

[The Shaman]

Thanks for the responses guys. One of my biggest concerns is the 1.75" hole in both the tank and the sump. Reducing the syphon hose to 1" would not be a problem. Nor would increasing it again at the sump end to match the bulhead fitting. What I'm worried about on this end is the corner overflow on the sump. I think the flow rate may be too much for the sump overflow. I'd like to plumb the syphon as follows:
Bulkhead fitting>reducer>1" syphon line>reducer>sump bulkhead.
The water would then drain into the sump overflow, then into the sump tank. I'm hoping I can incorporate the sump overflow into the design as it would hold filter floss acting as a particulate filter and bubble reducer. I'm a bit worried that the flow rate may too much for the overflow and that water would splash or spray out of it instead of flowing out of it. BTW, the sump will be located under the main tank, in the stand.

The return plumbing really has me guessing. It seems that there's an almost endless variety of methods I could use to put water back in the tank and have good circulation. I really have to study some options on this one. I'm thinking that my pump will probably be something like a Rio 2500. I definately welcome recommendations on the pump! I can't afford a really good one right now and I can live with a little noise. Any ideas?

 

[Larry M]

Shaman--A 1" bulkhead requires a 1.75" hole, so you are in good shape. As for pumps, I use Rio's and like them. I don't think they are noisy at all.
Good luck,


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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef

 

[FOX]

Larry,

I agree the gate valve is better, but I couldn't find any to save my life. Only metal ones. So I used ball valves and haven't had any trouble going on 2 years now. I do check them very often to make sure they are clear.

BristolWorm,

You have your overflow and return pump matched perfectly. It doesn't always work out that way. So it's a good idea to install the valves, just in case, so you don't have to go and take everything apart later and do it over again.

Shaman,

If you install the valves, you can close them very slightly so that the pipe fill a little with water. That will eliminate the gurgling sound in the pipes from air getting in.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm

 

[Gannet]

First a little clarification. I assume that by "corner overflows" you mean some kind of box or wall arrangement in the tank that water spills over before exiting the tank out the drain(s). If that is not the case, ignore what follows.

It is -not possible- for an overflow to flow "too much". Only as much water will leave the tank as is pumped in.

It is entirely possible (and even common) to have drains that are "too small". When this happens your choice of pumps and current level is restricted. As a rule of thumb, choose drains with a flow rate of 1.5X your pump rate. Even larger drains are Good.

Normally, valves are not installed on drains, with the exception of folks who want to raise the water level in their overflow box to reduce spashing noise. In that case, a gate valve is required, as a ball valve will not provide fine enough control.

If you do decide to valve the drain I strongly suggest you have an unvalved backup drain line at a higher level. In order for the valve to have the desired effect it must be closed until it is just barely keeping up with the pump. If something happens to further restrict the primary drain, Bad Things happen.

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fwiw, imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
when in doubt, change water

 

[FOX]

Gannet,

I used a ball valve to fill the pipes with water to reduces the gurgling sound. Worked fine. I only used it on one overflow(I have dual overflows)so if it were to somehow get clogged, the other side is still open and can more than handle the output from my Quiet One. You are correct that the overflows cannot flow too much. They will only flow what the pump puts out. I forgot about that.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm

 

[salt novice]

Shaman, Fox, GAnnon, etal. 46 gal. acrylic (36x15x20 main, sump 26x15x15, 25gal. Main tank has two 1 5/8 holes drilled upper rear left & right corners. 90 deg. ang. with a 3" standpipe. Pipe is 1/2" below the water line (this ensures that the tank can not completely drain and flood my floor ). and has fiberglass screening glued across the top so that nothing can get into the drain lines. Lines lead down to sump and each has a ball valve inline ( for cleaning and or adjustment purposes ) to a DIY prefilter box ( siliconed into one corner). In sump is an RSB skimmer, Emperor 400 Bio Wheel, (no LR/LS), Duerto 50 fikter , (for carbon usage once a month 3-4 days duration ). The RSB and the return to main tank is powered by 1 ( one) Mag 1800 water pump ( rated at 1500 gals,/hr. at 6 ft. hgt. and is split off with a Y valve to power both the RSB and the retorn to tank. The return line ends at a DIY spray bar running accross the back of the tank. This is my own Rube Goldberg design ( hope the hell it works ). What are you thoughts PLEASE. Slat

 

[The Shaman]

Thanks for all the advice and help, guys. You've been a big help.

Larry - I was really glad to hear you say that my hole will use a 1" bulkhead. As you can tell, I am fairly ignorant in these matters. Also, you say you use a Rio pump. Just curious, which do you think would be better for my setup a 2100 or a 2500? I will not be using rigid pvc for the plumbing only clear vinyl tubing. Also, what size return tubing does a 2100 or 2500 need?

BTW, one of my LFS's has a hardware store next door that has a big selection of plastic fittings and valves. A 1" gate valve was $11. Seems like I got lucky here.

 

[Larry M]

Shaman--If you found a plastic 1" gate valve at a hardware store, you are very lucky! Like Fox said, they are hard to find. Aquatic Ecosystems has them on-line, but they are hard to find locally.
I would go for the 2500 myself, I believe it uses a 5/8" line.
The Rio comes with it's own ball valve built right into the tubing connector.
Good luck,


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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef

 

[The Shaman]

Thanks again, Larry. You've been a big help. If anyone was interested I could send the plastic gate valves to you, but I don't know how much of a price difference there would be b/w me getting them and just ordering from Aquatic Ecosystems. Just a thought.