Algae Scrubber or Alkatronic to Stabilize pH?

[Kengar]

If you were going to add one piece of gear to stabilize pH, would you add an algae scrubber and run when main lights are off, or an alkatronic and run always? i'm leaning toward algae scrubber since it will pull other nutrients out without adding stuff into the tank (i.e., basic solution) like the alkatronic, and it's less expensive. thoughts?

 

[reefgeezer]

If you were going to add one piece of gear to stabilize pH, would you add an algae scrubber and run when main lights are off, or an alkatronic and run always? i'm leaning toward algae scrubber since it will pull other nutrients out without adding stuff into the tank (i.e., basic solution) like the alkatronic, and it's less expensive. thoughts?

An quality algae scrubber is a kind of "do no harm" device that might help reduce day/night pH swings. The alk controller has some associated risks and has limited pH control potential. Neither is really a pH control device and won't fix a "pH problem".

That said, pH is not something I'd get in the habit of chasing. The day/night swing isn't an issue if it stays in the 7.7 and 8.4 range... ish. Personally, I'd just make sure my alkalinity was stable in a range I set (8.5 dKh for me), maybe add a CO2 scrubber on the skimmer, and not test pH much. FWIW, I haven't tested pH in years.

 

[Kengar]

reposted with edits

 

[Kengar]

The alk controller has some associated risks and has limited pH control potential.

Re alk controller, you said it has some risks. Such as????

pH is cycling between 7.87 and 8.1 per Apex, with lighting cycle.

Tank is still somewhat newish. I put in about 100 pounds of cured/cycled real live rock I picked up in Ohio in November, then about 80 or 90 pounds of fresh Fiji maricultured stuff I got maybe two months ago by now. Lots of ReefFlakes -- some live. With cycle/cure of the maricultured stuff, there has been quite the hair algae bloom, still going despite 15 emerald crabs, 125 blue legged hermits, and a lawnmower blenny. (other fish in tank are just what I xferred over from the existing 22 I had: pair of clowns, a goby, and a hawkfish. NOT rushing things. there is at least 250 or 260 gallons of water in the system, I've done numerous water changes over the months (automatic, 50 gallons, easy with Genesis Renew system). Been dosing two-part manually on fairly regular basis, and adding purple-up occasionally, but was out of town for 1.5 weeks.

Nitrate (per salifert drops and dipstrip (feh!)) are 0

alk (per ATI drops test) has been at 8 or so (though resolution isn't great with that test; plan to get a Hanna). Calcium (per ATI drops test) has been at 380 (same note re resolution).

Re chasing pH, generally speaking I think it's sage advice not to go chasing things seeking a "perfect" number. That said, it is one indicator that does seem to swing more than would preferred. Although alk stability seems to be more important from what I've seen/read, pH is more readily ascertainable for me (Apex Fusion app).

Re algae scrubber, as noted above, it should remove nutrients naturally. Also, I am thinking that it will outcompete the nuisance algae I've still got and help get rid of it. So that's another reason I was leaning that way.


I plan to add Neptune DOS/DDR at some point, but don't have enough coral in there now to justify it -- just the few pieces I xferred over from the 22, which seem to be thriving/growing (SPS)/way opening up (ACAN)

 

[reefgeezer]

Re alk controller, you said it has some risks. Such as????

Alk controllers are new. The probe must be cleaned and calibrated. It can go out of whack and cause an alk swing. This, unlike normal pH swings, is harmful. Also... and this is the key... adding alkalinity is not a good way to control pH. You'll end up with high alkalinity and still have pH swings. If you want a controller to control alk (the important parameter), I'm all for it. Just know it needs maintenance and won't really help with pH.

...pH is cycling between 7.87 and 8.1 per Apex, with lighting cycle.

That range is just fine. With elevated CO2 levels in our homes due to better seals and insulation it is really the new normal. A CO2 scrubber can help but isn't necessary.

Tank is still somewhat newish...

Hair algae is an expected event in a new tank. Manual removal, working on nutrient levels, and competition (Algae scrubber, cheato, etc.) are good ways to keep it in check until the tank matures. Don't expect miracles from a scrubber though. Everything takes time.

Nitrate (per salifert drops and dipstrip (feh!)) are 0

There are nitrates in the system. Most of it is bound in the hair algae and not available to your test kit. Not a bad thing, just the way it works. You can't test accurately for free nitrate when there is a lot of algae in the tank.

... (per ATI drops test) has been at 8 or so (though resolution isn't great with that test; plan to get a Hanna). Calcium (per ATI drops test) has been at 380 (same note re resolution).

8 dKh and 380 ppm are ok. 420+ would be a little better. With little in the tank to use it (SPS, LPS corals, & Coralline), calcium & alk shouldn't need much 2 part at all. Also, you could be actually lowering you alk & calcium by adding too much two part. It may be cause precipitation events that cause the calcium and carbonate/bicarbonate to fall out of solution as calcium carbonate. You also need to watch magnesium. Without it, you will have trouble maintaining calcium levels.

Re chasing pH, generally speaking I think it's sage advice not to go chasing things seeking a "perfect" number. That said, it is one indicator that does seem to swing more than would preferred. Although alk stability seems to be more important from what I've seen/read, pH is more readily ascertainable for me (Apex Fusion app).

Stable Alk is very important. Chasing pH will lead you astray. Watching it is ok as an indicator, but trying to make it stay at a predetermine level is not a best practice. Day/night swings are natural. It's ok if something that is otherwise beneficial reduces the swing, but I wouldn't spend a penny on anything to directly control pH.

Re algae scrubber, as noted above, it should remove nutrients naturally. Also, I am thinking that it will outcompete the nuisance algae I've still got and help get rid of it. So that's another reason I was leaning that way.

Good choice, IMO. Just remember, it takes time.

I plan to add Neptune DOS/DDR at some point, but don't have enough coral in there now to justify it -- just the few pieces I xferred over from the 22, which seem to be thriving/growing (SPS)/way opening up (ACAN)

The corals from your 22 might not need als/calcium supplementation in the big tank for now. There may be way more available calcium carbonate for their growth that they need. Water changes might suffice for quite a while. I would stop adding two part and definitely stop the Purple UP (Trash it). Do some normal water changes, let the tank stabilize, then test for alk, calcium, AND magnesium, and go from there.

Speed kills. Take your time.

 

[ReefsandGeeks]

I'd personally never consider adjusting alk as a way of changing the pH. They are related, but pH is more complicated than a certain alk level. IMO, ALK should be rock stable at whatever number you decide to run your reef at.

If you were having pH fluctuations that are too high, I'd personally first look at gas exchange (skimmer, surface agitation...etc), then if that all seems in order. Try opening the windows in the house in the middle of the day, then check pH an hour later. If it's gone up significantly, than your home air may be stale. This can be remedied either with a CO2 scrubber, or possibly by running your skimmer air inlet outside to pull in fresh air.

If still not happy, I'd run a refugium on an opposite light schedule as the display to raise the night time pH. Algae scrubber would also perform the same function if you prefer those.

As far as alk/Ca consumption, the rate may differ from what you needed to dose in your last tank due to changes in coral position, lighting, water flow...etc. I'd probably start with dosing whatever you were dosing before to maintain, and monitor closely to see if alk and Ca are drifting. Then make any necessary adjustments.

I don't think your pH swing is unreasonable now. If all other perimeters are in line, particularly alk, than pH would be more of an indicator of dissolved CO2 in the tank than anything. That being the case, finding your preferred way of stabilizing CO2 in the tank should help keep the pH more stable if that's a concern for you.

 

[Kengar]

They are related, but pH is more complicated than a certain alk level.

Yeah, I was reading up on alk at lunch and thinking about what is really going on in terms of pH being power of hydrogen and indicating degree of hydrogen ions "running around" to be bound up with carbonate ions (i.e., acidity) and all the other stuff Mr. Schuermann told us about in AP Chem way back in '82 and pretty much came to same conclusion.....

Try opening the windows in the house in the middle of the day, then check pH an hour later. If it's gone up significantly, than your home air may be stale. This can be remedied either with a CO2 scrubber, or possibly by running your skimmer air inlet outside to pull in fresh air.

Sump/skimmer are in HVAC/utilities room behind wall and partially under stairs leading to the lower level. About the only place to run an airline -- and I've thought of ALL the places I could try to route it....... -- would be up into the garage...... so that ain't gonna work! I've sort of been leaning toward CO2 scrubber. My concern there was that when I first used one maybe 10 years ago on a previous system, when they first started to be available as a canister/insert kit, was that the media got used up pretty quickly. The pH, though, clearly stabilized. See http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719097&highlight=scrubber

If still not happy, I'd run a refugium on an opposite light schedule as the display to raise the night time pH. Algae scrubber would also perform the same function if you prefer those.

There is a refugium chamber in sump right before return pump chamber. I could put chaeto etc. in there, though I do like the arrangement of scrubbers. Although refugium would be simpler/cheaper, I would need additional lights at least, and I wonder what the relative/comparative efficiencies are like between the two.

I don't think your pH swing is unreasonable now. If all other perimeters are in line, particularly alk, than pH would be more of an indicator of dissolved CO2 in the tank than anything.

Sort of my ultimate conclusion after "thinking on" things a little more today. See above.


So, I think I will add an algae scrubber -- I like the design of the Clearwater scrubbers -- as well as a CO2 scrubber, then simply monitor the other parameters as frequently as necessary when more corals start going on. Will also likely get a Hanna Alk checker sooner rather than later, too, to keep closer tabs on it than the API drops permit.


Thanks, all, for the input.

 

[Kengar]

If you want a controller to control alk (the important parameter), ......../QUOTE]

From a reef chemistry standpoint, why is alk "the important" parameter to control? Because of its indication of tank's ability to "buffer" pH swings (which takes us back to original reason for my post)? Because, assuming it's really reflecting the presence of CALCIUM carbonate -- not just carbonate in general -- that bears on the ability of corals and coralline algae to build skeletons and grow? Some other reason?

Thanks.

 

[reefgeezer]

If you want a controller to control alk (the important parameter), ......../QUOTE]

From a reef chemistry standpoint, why is alk "the important" parameter to control? Because of its indication of tank's ability to "buffer" pH swings (which takes us back to original reason for my post)? Because, assuming it's really reflecting the presence of CALCIUM carbonate -- not just carbonate in general -- that bears on the ability of corals and coralline algae to build skeletons and grow? Some other reason?

Thanks.

Alkalinity indicates the carbonate/bicorbonate available for the creation of calcium carbonate needed by hard corals for growth. Particularly for SPS corals, stable alkalinity is absolutely required. An alkalinity swing of more than maybe .7 dKh on a constant basis can hamper coral growth and health. Swings bigger than that can kill sensitive SPS corals and may also affect other hard corals.

Yes, buffering capacity is required, but unlike fresh water where carbonate is limited, in a marine tank there is normally enough buffering capacity even when alkalinity is too low (like less than 6.5 dKh) to maintain some corals.

I'd also like to mention that pH is a poor indicator for alkalinity. Changes and swings in pH normally indicate changes in dissolved CO2 levels rather than changes in carbonate/bicarbonate levels. I'd suggest that pH is not a parameter on which to base any action.

 

[Kengar]

Alkalinity indicates the carbonate/bicorbonate available for the creation of calcium carbonate needed by hard corals for growth. Particularly for SPS corals, stable alkalinity is absolutely required. An alkalinity swing of more than maybe .7 dKh on a constant basis can hamper coral growth and health. Swings bigger than that can kill sensitive SPS corals and may also affect other hard corals.

Yes, buffering capacity is required, but unlike fresh water where carbonate is limited, in a marine tank there is normally enough buffering capacity even when alkalinity is too low (like less than 6.5 dKh) to maintain some corals.

I'd also like to mention that pH is a poor indicator for alkalinity. Changes and swings in pH normally indicate changes in dissolved CO2 levels rather than changes in carbonate/bicarbonate levels. I'd suggest that pH is not a parameter on which to base any action.

Thanks so much. This makes a lot of sense.

Per another post I made the other day, I've been in the hobby since '96 or '97, and I know a lot of the general "rules of thumb," but I've never taken the time to understand the "why's" behind the rules of thumb. Taking the time to do so now; understanding the physical/chemical processes and principles at play makes it so much easier to make intelligent decisions.

Ken

 

[reefgeezer]

Thanks so much. This makes a lot of sense.

Per another post I made the other day, I've been in the hobby since '96 or '97, and I know a lot of the general "rules of thumb," but I've never taken the time to understand the "why's" behind the rules of thumb. Taking the time to do so now; understanding the physical/chemical processes and principles at play makes it so much easier to make intelligent decisions.

Ken

You're welcome. I can't claim to understand that much of the chemistry involved in our tanks. I'm not good at linking files but google articles by Randy Holmes-Farley. He explains reef chemistry in a pretty understandable way. He's the go to guy for that stuff.

 

[Kengar]

I've been in the hobby since '96 or '97, and I know a lot of the general "rules of thumb," but I've never taken the time to understand the "why's" behind the rules of thumb. Taking the time to do so now; understanding the physical/chemical processes and principles at play makes it so much easier to make intelligent decisions.

Ken

33 years later, I still remember my first day of Rocket Propulsion class (16.512 for those who know......) The professor says (scoffs at us?) in his Cockney accent, "This class is really quite simple. There are just four principles to remember: conservation of mass, conservation of momentum, conservation of energy, and change in energy is greater than or equal to zero. All the rest is just details! eh, hehehehehehe...." He then proceeded to fill four blackboards with such "details" at twice the speed I could take notes, and I knew right then that I was seriously screwed...... (there's a reason I went to law school three years later......)

Seriously, though, his point was correct. If you understand the basic physical/chemical principles at play, there is a whole lot you can understand and "work with" intelligently.

 

[Uncle99]

To me, Alk is important because there’s not much of in in the water say 140-180 ppm in comparison to calcium at 420-460ppm and MG at 1260-1360. As you know, consumption of Alk and CA us at an equal rate, So it can fluctuate way faster, and corals, some more than others, hate change.

As you have noticed, it’s not as much the levels kept, rather the stability in those levels

While I don’t chase PH, again, stability is everything, higher PH has a positive effect of n growth of Stoney corals, it’s just the effort and cost to minimize the change is IMO, not worth it

What I do employ is those easy to do things as outlined nicely above

 

[reefgeezer]

Taking the time to do so now; understanding the physical/chemical processes and principles at play makes it so much easier to make intelligent decisions.

Ken

Physics is sooooo much easier than biology. Nothing plays by the same rules where biology is involved. Even the chemistry involved is somewhat screwed by the biological process involved. I guess that's why we can put a man on the moon with computers less powerful than our smart watches but can't cure the common cold with all of today's technology!

 

[Kengar]

Physics is sooooo much easier than biology. Nothing plays by the same rules where biology is involved. Even the chemistry involved is somewhat screwed by the biological process involved. I guess that's why we can put a man on the moon with computers less powerful than our smart watches but can't cure the common cold with all of today's technology!

LOL re man on the moon with a seiko LED watch.....

This is why I focus on electromechanical technologies instead of biotech (I'm a patent attorney). You can actually SEE the stuff I work with; the other stuff is just plain black magic!