Host Anemone & lighting

[rshimek]

Originally posted by GSB

Hi,


I understand that this is a "back of the envelope" estimate,

Very

but I'd like to understand how you reached this estimate. You say a mass of 2.3 kg, but we're not talking about the animal itself are we? It must be the weight of an anemone as one carries it home in a plastic bag. If that's correct, most of the weight is saltwater, isn't it?

I am trying to estimate live tissue weight here. This would be the mass of animal contracted as much as possible. Anemones are pretty massive animals for cnidarians and have a lot of fibrous protein and live tissue in their mass.

Yes, even so it is mostly water - but when fully contracted, it would have about the same water component as a given mass of fish or other aquatic animal.

It that's the case, this is a rather large anemone. Assuming most of the weight is saltwater, it must be something like 16-18 inches across. Is that what you based your assumptions on?

More like the big ones one sees on the reefs, say a ritteri with a column 18 inches across and an oral disk about 2-3 feet across.

If most of the weight is saltwater, the weight of the tissue is going to be a small fraction of this. What would you say? Maybe 5%? Using some of the few scientific articles on anemone nutrition I've been able to find, your proposed 100-200g seems very high. It seems like it ought to be something like 10% of this or less.

Check out the work by Mimi Koehl on the biomechanics of anemones, published in about 1977 or 78, I think ( I don't have the reference in my data base, sorry). Anyway she looked at smaller anemones than these giants, but from her work you should be able to "scale" up to them. I think my estimates of live tissue weight are fairly reasonable.

I examined the diets of smaller azooxantellate anemones, Urticina crassicornis for this publication: Shimek, R. L. 1981. Neptunea pribiloffensis (Dall, 1919) and Tealia crassicornis (Müller, 1776), On a snail's use of babysitters. The Veliger. 24: 62 - 66., and although I did not quantify the weights of the foods, a large number of these animals (which are about the size of the average bulb tipped anemone seen in the hobby) were eating prey that were on the order of 100 gr or more (sea urchins, etc.).

Other folks, working with Anthopleura xanthogrammica, which has both zooxanthellae and zoochlorellae, and which can reach sizes to rival an average ritteri, have found that they eat mussel clumps (knocked out of the intertidal by wave surge) that can weigh up to several hundred grams.

In some other unpublished research on a subtidal temperate azooxanthellate anemone, Cribrinopsis fernaldi. I found it was eating whole swimming scallops (caught on the fly as they swam by). These are smaller anemones, maybe only 10" across, but the food item could have about 20-50 g wet tissue weight.

Anyway, the gist of this babble is that a lot of anemones seem to eat a lot of food. In many temperate areas they appear to be very important predators eating apparently a lot of food per unit time, I see no reason to assume that they are not doing the same in the tropics.

 

[filishy]

Hi Good Doctor, it's Mary!

Just for future references, where can this "Gamma foods lancefish" can be bought?

I know I will eventually (once I believe I have learned enough) try to keep anemones, so as usual, liked to be prepared.

Thank you, Doc!

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by filishy

Hi Mary,

Just for future references, where can this "Gamma foods lancefish" can be bought?

I purchase mine frozen and mail ordered in from:

Saltwater City
13626 NE 20th Street
Bellevue, Washington 98005

425-644-7050
fax 425-644-7075

Ask for Trev or Pat.

 

[GSB]

In many temperate areas they appear to be very important predators eating apparently a lot of food per unit time, I see no reason to assume that they are not doing the same in the tropics.

Thanks. That is the question, whether host anemones are such aggressive predators in the tropics.

Thanks for the references!

 

[GregD]

Dr. Ron,

First off I would like to thank you for taking the time to host a forum like this that is so readily accessible...I think your contributions to the hobby and the science are great.

As a successful keeper of anemones myself (success rates over 1 year) I wanted to get your opinion on the following idea surrounding anmeone feeding-

It has been my experience that anemones use their tentacles and zooxanthellate not only for photosynthesis but also as a physical way to assist feeding themselves direct meals.

If the zooxanthellate die off due to lack of light, won't the anemone lose some or all of its ability to use the stinging/cling receptors to kill or hold direct meals as it feeds itself. (my anology, not trying to be gruesome here... is a person without hands or teeth....certainly they can survive on food fed to them, however without the use of hands or teeth to aid the feeding process, this becomes much more difficult)

I would also want to confirm that you are not suggesting feeding alone is the only factor that leads to successful anemone keeping (although it goes a long way!) Just because you sufficiently feed an anemone directly, this factor alone does not guarantee success, you must also make sure you have good water quality/parameters.

Thanks in advance!
Greg D

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by GregD

Hi Greg,

If the zooxanthellate die off due to lack of light, won't the anemone lose some or all of its ability to use the stinging/cling receptors to kill or hold direct meals as it feeds itself. (my anology, not trying to be gruesome here... is a person without hands or teeth....certainly they can survive on food fed to them, however without the use of hands or teeth to aid the feeding process, this becomes much more difficult)

The loss of zoox should not effect this in the slightest, as long as the animal is getting appropriate nutrition from other sources. The stinging capsules - nematocysts - are secreted by the anemone's cells and there is no evidence to indicate anything in them is directly related to the zoox byproducts.

Similarly, the anemone's adhesion to the substrate is simply done with a thick mucus. This also appears to be no different here than in anemones without zoox.

I would also want to confirm that you are not suggesting feeding alone is the only factor that leads to successful anemone keeping (although it goes a long way!) Just because you sufficiently feed an anemone directly, this factor alone does not guarantee success, you must also make sure you have good water quality/parameters.

One needs a number of things to keep these animals in good shape.

First is appropriate nutrition, probably second is an appropriate physical substrate, and of course one needs good water.

 

[filishy]

Muchas gracias, Doctor!

Mary.

 

[JonR]

To ask a detailed question, how often and how much lancefish would you recommend feeding a small (2-3" anemone), and how would this vary for slightly larger ones.

I take it other fish will be unable to approach the anemone to 'steal' the lancefish!

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by JonR

Hi Jon,

To ask a detailed question, how often and how much lancefish would you recommend feeding a small (2-3" anemone), and how would this vary for slightly larger ones.

This is somewhat hard to guage, it depends a lot on the species, and probably on the individual. I generally feed every other day. I would start by cutting the fish in half (easy to do when frozen) or dicing them. I would initially feed one or two. If the animal takes them readily, perhaps up the amount. If you are feeding more than "maintenance amounts" the animal will start to grow noticeably. If you don't want this, feed less. If you wish it to grow faster, feed more.

I take it other fish will be unable to approach the anemone to 'steal' the lancefish!

No. Not quite. Clown fish will eat the lancefish on occasion and will take them out of the anemone, sometimes. And put them back in. If the anemone is "hungry" it will often fold up over the food so fast and vigorously that the clowns can't do anything.

I haven't had other fish try to get near the anemone to get the food but I suppose this is possible. It is also possible that these fish would then be stung and eaten.

 

[Jake]

Dr. Ron,

Through most of this thread I understood that you were making a statement that Host anemonies needs can be met sucessfully with feeding even in the absense of it's symbiotic algae. However I have noted that you keep your under intense lighting.

I am hoping that you are not reccomending that people keep these animals in dim lighting conditions. These animals have proven hard to keep, possibly due to the fact that they need a lot of food. It seems then that it would be a bad Idea to remove a non polluting food source for an animal that even with intense lighting requires supplemental feedings. Also by having intense light the nutrient processing capibilities of the tank are enhanced (Algae growth) so better water quality can be maintained.

I guess what I am trying to ask you is- Would you reccommend keeping these animals under dim or no lighting?

 

[JonR]

Ron,

Thanks, what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

thanks,
Jon

 

[ravenmore]

Jake - I think Dr. Shimek already answered your question. Quote by Dr. Shimek:

I think that lighting is important to these animals in the real world for one reason. It allows them to get nutrition. If their nutrition needs are adequately met by feeding them, then I don't see any thing wrong with keeping them in an environment that has lower light intensity.

This issue is really rather simple but we seem intent on making it complicated.

Anemones, as does any life form, require a certain amount of energy to live, grow, and reproduce. Anemones can get this energy from multiple sources:

-source 1 is through feeding, which can be on a broad range of things, some microscopic.

-source 2 is from a symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae within their tissues.

It's simple. If they get enough nutrition from source 1 then they don't need source 2.

Most people do not feed their anemones enough - I would venture to guess that most hobbiest grossly underestimate how much these critters can eat. In such situations strong light can help. However, the energy from photosynthesis is not sufficient enough for the animal to grow or repair tissues. (it's junk food - see the cotton candy analogy Dr. Shimek mentions) The anemone needs to feed for that. In fact, I believe the zoox itself needs nitrogen compounds from the host as well (nitrogen compounds are acquired only by "feeding").

I don't think Dr. Shimek is "recommending" any one keep an anemone in low light. He is mearly pointing out that it can be done if the animal is fed properly and can be quite healthy in such an environment.

Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.

-Mike

 

[Emmitt]

Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.

....and give it plenty of intense light. That is, if one of our primary objectives is to provide an environment as close to natural as possible.

This, after reading this post and others, is MHO.

 

[Jake]

What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

My point was not to give Ron a hard time or to find out under what conditions anemone husbandry is possible.

I believe that you could keep an anemone alive in a dark state, but I think it would be a lot harder than keeping them in a lighted tank. I just want to make sure people don't start saying "I can keep an anemone in the dark cause Ron said so." I realize Ron did not state this but there are people out there that through lack of understanding or purposeful ignorance will say this. Due to Ron's stature in the hobby I just wanted him to restate his general reccommendations for Anemone husbandry so newbies don't go and get an underlit tank and throw an anemone in it claiming Ron said it was OK.
As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

I guess my point is their are many ways things can be done. One can keep an Anemone under many conditions, you can keep corols in a tank that is significantl cooler than the temperatures Ron suggests. However Ron suggests those temperatures because he feels they are optimal temperatures for corals to thrive. I would say that optimal conditions for host anemones would involve high lighting. I am fairly sure Ron would agree with me on this but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.

 

[ravenmore]

Let me re-iterate: I am not suggesting/recommeding that you keep anemones in a dim environment. I keep mine under quite bright light conditions actually. But I am saying that it could be done and the anemones would do just fine as long as their energy needs were met in another manner. And I am also pointing out that strong light alone is not good enough to keep an anemone. They have to feed on something. Photosynthesis doesn't provide them with nutrients like nitrogen compounds and protiens that are required for healing, growing and re-producing.

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Jake

Hi,

What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

What about it? You have nutrient export in all cases.

As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

Anemones are not any more delicate than any other animals, in fact, they are some of toughest animals going - given enough food and the right habitat.

Zooxanthellae are NOT a good food source. They don't provide complete nutrition! They provide energy in the form of sugars, but the animals need a source of raw materials to build tissues - proteins. Zoox can provide some proteins only if the anemones have eaten first. The anemones also can also make their own proteins simply by digesting their food. In either case they have to feed.

but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.

The optimal conditions will vary with the anemone species.

The animals need an approriate substrate.

Then they need to be fed well with an appropriate food.

They then will do best in moderate to bright light

They need full strength salinity water, other water parameters are less important.

Now.....

If their nutritional needs are met by feeding, then lighting becomes unimportant. It is possible to keep any zooxanthellate animal alive in the absence of light, however it is neither easy nor normal to do so. I don't recommend keeping these animals in dimly illuminated tanks. Nonetheless, it is possible to do so. Just because you can do such a thing, doesn't necessarily mean you should do such a thing.

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by JonR

Hi Jon,

what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

I get them up to about 3" long. I try to dice them into 1/4 to 1/2 inch chunks, but often don't bother and just feed the whole things.

 

[Alice]

Excellent. Now that every newcomer to the hobby is going to keep anemones in the dark like mushrooms with an NO striplight, NSW and frozen lancefish let's at least ask them to act responsibly and buy captive raised so they don't deplete the ocean of these beautiful creatures.

~Alice


Save the Neoprenes!

 

[mengerin]

Alice, I don't think you're understanding. 1M anemones are brought in and die each year to be replaced by a new 1M. The postulate is they're dying because they're not fed and attempted to be kept in "light" (let's assume 'bright').

If people feed w/ no light, they may have a dog ugly anemone, but it'll live.

I think you've very much missed the point of this long thread.

Cheers,
Matthew

 

[Alice]

Hi Matthew;

No, I don't think I missed the point. I think I'm just looking at it from a different angle.

I'm all for feeding; I'm a Mom, I feed everything impartially and probably sometimes more than is good for them The kids, their friends, my husband, my cat, stray dogs and my tanks. If feeding them is all it takes to keep anemones alive, boy howdy, I'll be the first one doing the happy dance but I still feel you have to view the situation with an eye to conservation. I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

~Alice