when it rains it pours

[Patti7dc]

Looking for some advice - I am having multiple issues at this point.

1 - my royal gramma is covered in white spots and has stopped eating (guessing ich). it has been in the tank for 3 months and only new things added have been coral frags. It might be too late for this fish but I am scared this will be the beginning of another massacre :-(.

2 - my clowns have a white dusting on them. not spotty like the gramma but like a glazing. maybe velvet? I'm not super worried about them as they are still swimming and eating normally.

3 - green hair algae is slowly taking over my tank.

4 - I have been doing 2 water changes a month (20-30G on my 90G system) and my nitrates are still reading at 10-20.

So let me say that I have done a bunch of reading and because of the algae growth I assumed it was water quality issues (which would also cause stress on the fish) and so I bought an ASM G-1X skimmer a couple weeks ago and upped my water changes.

My current light cycle is 8 hrs actinic, 6 hours white. For inverts I have astraea, trochus, conch, and nassarius snails, a tuxedo urchin, two mithrax crabs (who I got to eat the hair algae and only snip at my leather coral grrrr!!), a red star, and a brittle star. For fish I have two clowns, the gramma, a blenny, 3 chromis, a wrasse, coral beauty, and hawkfish. My DT is 90G with a 30G sump that is 2/3 full.

I clean the sponge on the overflow box weekly, change the filter sock weekly, have the filter sock sitting in a quart bucket with chemi-pure and a mesh bag of carbon. (The water flows out of the sock, into the quart bucket, and then out into the sump.)

So yesterday I took my water to TRS to get tested and they didn't give me the exact numbers but they said that phosphates weren't an issue and the guy told me nitrates "weren't bad" and I said what does that mean and he said they were less than 20. Okay I guess 50 or more would have been "bad"..... but I had done a water change the day before so I was really expecting it to be closer to 0!

I want the water quality to be good enough to keep my fish and corals healthy! I have had a few SPS corals die off and leave me with their skeletons and others that have done very well. If everything were suffering I feel like it would be easier to diagnose. Not that I'm wishing for that!

The water changes don't seem to be helping that much and honestly they seem to be stressing out my fish even more. My first instinct is to buy a little fishies reactor for $35 and actively filter GAC. I could attempt to net the gramma and clowns and move them to QT for treatment, but the gramma is skittish and will wedge itself where I can't get it if I go near it.... just saying it would most likely be an exercise in futility.:headwalls:

My absolute last resort would be to remove the inverts and coral to my QT, scrub the rocks with the most hair algae growth, take out about half the water, dose the tank with copper based meds, and hope for the best... But that is a huge PITA and I'd rather not have to do all that crap.

Advice please? :hmm3:

 

[Mxman38]

Ive had most of my luck catching fish with the lights off in the wee hours of the morning. From experience, buy a reactor from brs, in two days my tank did a 180 from symptoms like yours. Not sure if it's ich, but Ur water quality could be a definite issue. Dual reactor, cuc, and slowly get Ur parameters back in check. What's Ur calc and mag levels?
Seems like u have the toys, but not the correct tools to keep yourself in check. Test your own water, don't have some one tell you its ok, when clearly its not.

 

[blanden.adam]

when it rains it does indeed pour. I'm sorry to hear you are going through all of this. I don't think your clowns do not have velvet or they would probably be dead already, brooklynella is probably more likely. high quality pics might be helpful in identifying the disease.

As to what to do about the diseases: you're going to have to catch all of the fish and put them in a hospital tank, treat the hospital tank with the appropriate medications, and let the display tank lie fallow for about 3 months (the typically recommended course for treating marine ich). Do not dose the DT with copper -- it will get caught up in the rocks and the seams of the tank and you'll never be able to keep invertebrates or corals in there again unless you replace the rock and get copper off of the seams and such.

As far as your water quality, I agree with Mxman38 -- buy your own test kits and test the water yourself. Also remember that when interpreting results given to you from a LFS (like "not bad"), the people who get them to test their water consistently tend not to be the most avid reefers (who would have their own test kits ), so they see a lot of train-wrecks with regard to parameters in their line of work. You want to shoot for excellent, and the best way to do that is to do your own tests and track your parameters over time.

Upping your skimmer may help to improve water quality in time. Keep skimming heavy, doing water changes, and letting yoru CUC do it's thing while your fish are quarantined. GAC can help with dissolved organics, but it wont help with nitrates or phosphates.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I doubt anyone purchases a reef aquarium because they want to do water tests.
Ditto with a swimming pool or hot tub.
Copper isn't an option with reef aquariums.
Properly performed water changes should not stress fishes.

Your problems don't sound unique.
I think most of us learned through some trials and errors- myself included.

Personally, I think most people overdo it on GFO and GAC.
Those BRS reactors are nice but they're HUGE.
A TLF reactor filled less than halfway is what I run on larger (upwards of 100 gallons) systems.

The best advice I can give here is DONT GIVE UP.
Things WILL improve. It's a learning curve.

 

[tmz]

Testing becomes a routine part of the process over time.

With your fish it sounds like disease, probably ich based on your descriptions , crytocaryon irritans. Perhaps some secondary bacterial infections. Maybe, velvet( oodinium) or some brooklynella. Take care of that first. Then we can look more closely at managing the water.

 

[akitareefer]

I would start by pulling out any dying coral that doesn't look like it can be saved. Then I would do a good vacuum job and turkey baster the nooks and crannys. Change the sock every 3 days when things are dirty and once a week when things are running ok. Its sounds like you have a good clean up crew. As much as having your own test kits is amazing...with a small bio load, TLC, and regular water changes they are not 100% necessary. You can usually tell when things are going wrong. The fish need a hospital tank in order to do copper treatments. Otherwise try to keep them healthy without overfeeding. Lastly, as suggested run your skimmer wet.

If you do decide to run gfo, I would just put it in a mesh bag in the sock.

Stressful water changes? Are you giving the salt time to mix? Using a properly calibrated refractometer? Young, properly rinsed and maintained swing arm?

Hang in there

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

What has all already been said. There is a huge learning curve. Your fish are more than likely looking stressed by the work you are doing, if everything is prepared correctly; the fish will get used to the routine. I like my wc schedule; it's more often and smaller than two changes per month, it also gives me more opportunity to suck out some crud. I change on 2wk- 3wc schedule; I think if you changed 10 or so gallons 5-6x per month (if you are like most of us you will likely miss one) along with other improvements, then things will gradually improve. Over the long haul tanks go through a lot of things that most of us simply have to learn from.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

If you do decide to run gfo, I would just put it in a mesh bag in the sock.

do NOT run GFO or GAC inside a filter sock or anywhere where water pounds it into fines. A reactor is definitely the best place to run these chemical filters actively.

If you want to run GAC and/or GFO passively submerge the mesh bag where water flows around it... but does not pound it.

 

[akitareefer]

OK, outside of the sock in the quart bucket.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Patti- are you using RO water or ?

 

[Patti7dc]

If you want to run GAC and/or GFO passively submerge the mesh bag where water flows around it... but does not pound it.

This is pretty much what I have it doing now. The chemi-pure bag and the mesh bag with the carbon are set inside that quart bucket with the water cascading around it.

Gary - when you say "A TLF reactor filled less than halfway is what I run on larger (upwards of 100 gallons) systems." What is your reactor filled with? I am still at the bottom of the learning curve, haha.

Thanks to everyone for the support. I'm not giving up - I just want to make sure I take the proper steps to fix everything. Looks like I will be spending this afternoon moving rock, netting the fish, and putting them all into the QT to let the DT lie fallow. Thanks for the advice to not copper treat the DT.

akitareefer - "Stressful water changes? Are you giving the salt time to mix? Using a properly calibrated refractometer? Young, properly rinsed and maintained swing arm?" - I mix the water and salt in 5G increments and pour it into an empty 30G rubbermaid. I let it sit for half hour with a pump in it and then put the water into my sump, letting my return pump mix it in with the tank water. Not sure what a maintained swing arm is... Am I doing it wrong? Saltwater is so different from freshwater - someone needs to give me lessons. :hmm4:

adam - "GAC can help with dissolved organics, but it wont help with nitrates or phosphates." So for some reason I guess I thought that GAC helped with "nutrients" and I thought Nitrates and Phosphates were nutrients.... I do so much reading before I post something and apparently I still don't get it... what are dissolved organics? Again - this is me at the bottom of the learning curve. Thanks for the support.

 

[Patti7dc]

Patti- are you using RO water or ?

yes and no. I usually use RO water - I buy it from TRS. But with having to do more WC I have been using tap water. The county water has no phosphates so I figured it'd be alright.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

That's a problem.
We have EXCELLENT tap but I would recommend you purchase an RO unit ASAP.

It's by no coincidence that an experienced reef keeper can zero in on such things.
Purchase an RO unit.

 

[blanden.adam]

adam - "GAC can help with dissolved organics, but it wont help with nitrates or phosphates." So for some reason I guess I thought that GAC helped with "nutrients" and I thought Nitrates and Phosphates were nutrients.... I do so much reading before I post something and apparently I still don't get it... what are dissolved organics? Again - this is me at the bottom of the learning curve. Thanks for the support.

Hey patty,

So, I think I know where the confusion is coming from here, and it's not at all uncommon to see this confusion over in the chemistry forum.

There are 2 kinds of carbon we typically talk about when discussing reef tanks: GAC and organic carbon.

GAC stands for granular activated carbon. It is a highly porous form of solid carbon (much like charcoal) that is manufactured to have a HUGE surface area on the microscopic level. Dissolved organic molecules like chemicals used by corals to fight each other, organic waste products, any stray chemicals from the house that might have found their way into the tank etc stick to its surface because the carbon itself is non-polar and has pores of particular sizes. It's the same kind of stuff that you would be forced to eat at the hospital if you accidentally drank a bottle of poison or something except in granular form so it can be used in a reactor , and for precisely the same purpose: Bind up organics so they don't interact with any of the organisms in the tank until you can remove the media.

Organic carbon is a term used to refer to various forms of smaller organic carbons that can be dosed as a form of nutrient control (you are correct, nitrates and phosphates are nutrients). The typical members of this group of carbons are ethanol (vodka), acetic acid (vinegar), sugar, and biopellets. No one really knows how they work for sure, but the presumed mechanism is that bacteria in the tank are limited in their growth by organic carbon, so when you dose it you fuel their growth. As they grow they assimilate nitrates and phosphates into their biomass, and are then removed by skimming or consumption by higher organisms. A word of caution though, organic carbon dosing is not without risks, and should only be attempted in systems that are already stable after much research has been done.

So: GAC, dissolved organics. Organic Carbon, nutrients.

Does that clear things up?

 

[tmz]

The bad news is that once the ich infested fish are removed from the tank. It can remain viable there for up to 72 days without a fish to infest. Not only will a fish have ich but the4 tank it;s in has ich waiting for fish to infect unless, it is left fishless for 72 days.

 

[reefboarder]

I agree with gary, the ro unit is as necessary as any other equipment in a successful reef aquarium. I read that you are using a filter sponge and a sock in your original post and imo the sponge is not necessary and could be producing nitrates. Also are you keeping track of salinity? Not sure if the skimmer is a new addition or an upgrade but the skimmate removed should be replaced with salt water if it is an excessive amount.

 

[tmz]

I agree GAC removes certian organics which hold nutreints(oganic carbon, nitrogen and phosphate) .It does not generally remove nitrate and phosphate directly but does removes the organics whence they come as the organics dissolve.

Organic carbon dosing fosters bacteria which turn nutrients into organics which can be exported by GAC and or skimming.

Terms are confusing in this hobby.
There seems to be at least 3 ways to refer to something. Some examples:
Alkaliity for example is often refered to as buffer, basicity ,carbonate alkainity, total alkalinity and measured in dkh, meq/l, ppm etc. Calcium reactors are not really calcium reactors they produce both calcium and alkalinity and other major and minor elements and are sometimes called CaCO3 reactors. They are often confused with kalk reactors which are also called calcium hydroxide reactors.

Kalkwsser is often called lime water or calcium hydroxide solution.

Not to mention the confusion around various measure conversions like tsps to gallons or liters or grams. It goes on and on unfortunately and takes some time and effort to sort it out .

 

[Patti7dc]

Thank you all for the advice and education. Just when I think I might know what I'm doing - I realize how much I still have to learn. I don't consider myself a dummy but geez this is all a lot of stuff to learn. I feel bad for my fish - what a bad mommy I am.

Ok so the update is that the Royal Gramma died a day or two ago. All the remaining fish are in a hospital tank as of this afternoon. The clowns were looking pretty gnarly (glazed and speckled) so I gave them a 5 minute dip in freshwater before putting them in the QT and they are looking better. So to go about treating the QT.... Copper based meds will help with ich. But not velvet or brooklynella, right? What specific medications (including brand) should I be dosing the hospital tank with at this point?

As for the DT - I had to take 100+ lbs of rock out to get all the fish.... so I left the rock in totes (with tank water) and I'm going to take the opportunity to properly vacuum the whole tank. The coral is still in the DT with the snails, stars, and crabs.

One more thing - I'm going to be ordering a TLF reactor and I can afford a RO/DI unit as well so that will def be in the order. The reactor is cheaper on drsfostersmith.com than at BRS so I was going to get it there. Can anyone give an opinion or two on the ro/di units? http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-...deionization-systems/ps/c/3578/4395/4418?s=ts

And I'm still confused as to what I should put in the reactor.... Gary you said you run the TLF reactor partially filled with.... GAC?

 

[spinoleo]

This is pretty much what I have it doing now. The chemi-pure bag and the mesh bag with the carbon are set inside that quart bucket with the water cascading around it.

Gary - when you say "A TLF reactor filled less than halfway is what I run on larger (upwards of 100 gallons) systems." What is your reactor filled with? I am still at the bottom of the learning curve, haha.

Thanks to everyone for the support. I'm not giving up - I just want to make sure I take the proper steps to fix everything. Looks like I will be spending this afternoon moving rock, netting the fish, and putting them all into the QT to let the DT lie fallow. Thanks for the advice to not copper treat the DT.

akitareefer - "Stressful water changes? Are you giving the salt time to mix? Using a properly calibrated refractometer? Young, properly rinsed and maintained swing arm?" - I mix the water and salt in 5G increments and pour it into an empty 30G rubbermaid. I let it sit for half hour with a pump in it and then put the water into my sump, letting my return pump mix it in with the tank water. Not sure what a maintained swing arm is... Am I doing it wrong? Saltwater is so different from freshwater - someone needs to give me lessons. :hmm4:

adam - "GAC can help with dissolved organics, but it wont help with nitrates or phosphates." So for some reason I guess I thought that GAC helped with "nutrients" and I thought Nitrates and Phosphates were nutrients.... I do so much reading before I post something and apparently I still don't get it... what are dissolved organics? Again - this is me at the bottom of the learning curve. Thanks for the support.

let your water mix in a tub over night before using and what are you using to measure your salinity?

 

[Breadman03]

let your water mix in a tub over night before using and what are you using to measure your salinity?

It's preferred to let the water mix overnight so that everything can dissolve completely and O2, etc can exchange with the atmosphere.

As far as RO units, you will need at least 4 stages: Sediment filter; carbon block; RO membrane; DI resin. I went with a 5 stage because my water has tons of sediment, so I have a coarse, then a fine sediment filter.

There are two features that I consider "must have": ASO (auto shut off) valve; TDS meter. I have mine plumbed into a Brute can with a float valve. When the water reaches the valve, the water shuts off and the ASO then shuts down the entire unit. This allows me to forget the RO is running without having to worry about an accidental flood. The TDS meter allows me to monitor when the DI resin is exhausted.